Making Way
Welcome to "Making Way", a podcast about finding your own path in life.
Join us as we explore the journeys of inspiring individuals who have forged their own paths in life. We chat with entrepreneurs to artists to teachers, our guests share their stories of overcoming challenges, taking risks, and discovering their passions. Through candid conversations and practical advice, "Making Way" offers insights and inspiration for anyone looking to break free from convention and make their own mark in the world.
I want you to embrace your individuality and create a life that truly reflects who you are!
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Making Way
REPLAY - The Power of Small Choices
An unfortunate accident left our guest wheelchair-bound, forever altering his life. But, he didn't let this setback limit him. His experiences fueled his decision to rewrite his personal narrative and take a route less traveled. He explored the power of choices, took risks, and found solace in mutual support.
Our guest's personal narrative is a testament to how our smallest choices can lead to bigger changes, and how adversity can reshape our outlook on life. The conversation concludes with his advice to his younger self - never let fear hold you back. The human spirit's resilience is evident as he shares how he used his circumstances to redefine his life and pursue a more positive future. Tune in for a heartfelt conversation that will leave you inspired.
I hope you enjoy us revisiting an episode that never gets old with my good friend Jeremy Weese.
Thank you for listening!
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That last one, the last question was the most interesting one. But as for where I'm from, so I was raised in Rochester, new York. It's a town on like Ontario, about an hour east of Buffalo, new York, and yeah, my dad left my mom when I was about a one and a half and that's actually my earliest memory that I can have, which is, I guess, is strange but I not unheard of for some of the members, of things that you know. But I do, like I remember where I was sitting in the house as my dad walked out the door and we'd moved from that apartment like months later. So it's not like I grew up in that apartment. And so when I described the layout of the apartment, my mom was like, yeah, that's, that's right, that's exactly what that place was like.
Speaker 1:And so I was like, yeah, that's my earliest memory, and so is my mom, my sister and I growing up. And yeah, it was, it was, you know, looking back on it and talking to my mom about it. It was tough for her, but as a child, you know, you don't know any better, you just think this is the way life is. And so you know we were, we were pretty poor, like I just remember spending time like with my mom waiting in different like in the social security office or the benefits office, or going with her to wait in line in a food pantry to pick up food, and that was normal.
Speaker 2:to you, though, that wasn't unusual, or?
Speaker 1:right, that just kind of seemed that's what I did, and so everyone else must be doing the same thing. To just be coming on different days, maybe, and that was pretty normal. We grew up in a group, in a church community, and they were. That was actually really helpful for my mom and my sister and I. Just having a larger community of people that were also help could also help. And, yeah, a lot of them were lower, middle, lower middle class, lower class as well, and so it's not like we were outside the norm of you know where we're in terms of poverty wise, yeah, yeah, and so some of the more defining things of my childhood Well, we'll put a pin in that for now, because you asked a question like what would people, what do people? How they describe? When I was young, I think they would describe me as I was pretty happy. I think I was, I was kind. That was something that my mom talked about and, yes, pretty, pretty carefree.
Speaker 2:Was it a diverse town where you grew up in?
Speaker 1:It was not. I lived in the city of Rochester and check that was. It was because we lived in the city so I had, like, people in our church were Latino, african American and white, but majority white, but so it was actually pretty diverse. Now that I think about it, yeah, like my friends growing up was a yeah, people from different races, so actually interestingly diverse in terms of race, but yeah, in terms of socioeconomic status, we were all pretty much on the same kind of tier, yeah, yeah. So I ended up going to the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill and that is a long, long story how I got there.
Speaker 2:Tell us what's the story.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I guess there are several different kind of factors that went into me kind of ending up there. Now that I think about it, one of the big ones was my you know grew up and, as you know, so when we were poor, my mom was on you know public assistance. But when my sister was about three years older than me, so she went to elementary school and then when I started first grade, I think, my mom went to the local community college to get a degree in accounting and so she, she fought really hard to work her way off of public assistance. And it's really interesting if you were talking to her, she tell you stories about how some social workers are just like just have some more kids, that way you can stay on longer. And fortunately for her she didn't take that advice and so she, she took a couple of years but she got her associate's degree while we were in elementary school and got a job as a bookkeeper and worked her way off public assistance. So about a time I was in fifth grade I think we were fourth grade, fifth grade we were off of public assistance. We still, I mean, money was tight still, but but I think it was. It was better for us, and that's kind of one of the defining features in my life as well is just, yeah, shaping me and how I look at the world is just seeing my mom's own determination and light of everything going against her, that she still wanted to work and improve her life and improve the life of her kids.
Speaker 1:And then in sixth grade, fifth or sixth grade, my dad came back into my life. My mom had found his, his number, in a phone book at work. So my mom asked me if, if she, if I wanted to meet my dad and if I wanted her to call. And she did, and my stepmom answered, and and that's when I first found out that my dad had remarried.
Speaker 1:But then, yeah, my dad and I reconnected and he started being integrated back into my life and me back into his, and so that was in kind of the end of elementary school, beginning of junior high, and I got rejected with my dad's family and that's that's one of the pieces of how I ended up in North Carolina was because my grandfather on my dad's side went to graduate school at the University of North Carolina and ended up going from there, moved up to Rochester to work for a company called Codex, which used to be a big deal back when all all cameras were on film and Codex was dominating the market, and so Rochester was actually the headquarters of Codex and anyway. So my, my dad was raised to be a North Carolina basketball fan, and really all my, all my dad's siblings and my cousins, so that's how I first got introduced to the propaganda for University of North Carolina and yeah, so that that was one of the pieces. I don't think I would have ended up at North Carolina, if.
Speaker 1:I hadn't been connected with my dad. When I was in ninth grade, just a few years after I met my dad, I was visiting a friend on winter break in a small town called Canada. It's in the Finger Lakes region of New York, but it was a friend's house that I'd visit often and so we I was there as an normal night one day. One morning we woke up and we're like let's go see this old railroad bridge that's near, near his house. There's this kind of old railroad track that that ran in the in the woods behind my friend's house and it was had never been used as long as I've been alive, and the city of New York was starting to break it down and they're, from what I recall, they're trying to turn all these old railroad tracks into trails, like kind of nature trails. So a little bit down the track was where the bridge used to go over a local highway, so I could call the highway, but it's a two lane road, but so the state was in the process of removing the bridge from there. So the bridge was gone, but the walls were up on either side of the highway and my friend and I, you know, there was no one on site. It was middle of winter, so we we walked. The fences were kind of falling down, we walked over them, kind of around a car barrier, and then we tried to get as close as we could to the edge and I tried to step down on the the part of the ledge where the bridge used to rest, right before, you know, the concrete embankment would end as I was stepping down. I was trying to step down kind of backwards, you know, like holding onto the ground and stepping down onto the ledge, and so I wouldn't, didn't see where I put my foot, and so one foot went down and the other one missed the ledge, and the one that was on the ledge was on a bunch of loose gravel that I didn't know was there, so it just one that was on the ledge lived off, and so I fell backwards off the edge of the concrete embankment. It was like 15 feet, and so just the way I fell it was, I was able to kind of like grab on to the ledge, but I wasn't able to like hold it. So I remember like scraping all my hands on the way down, but I landed on my feet, but because of the surprise, like my knees were locked, and so in that process just one of my vertebrae was shattered, a couple of other were damaged, and so I was.
Speaker 1:I fell over onto the side of the road and it took me a second for me to try to get up. And then I realized that my legs weren't working and I couldn't walk. And so friend came down. Some motorists stopped that he'd seen I don't know if he'd seen me fall, but he'd see me on the side of the road and so he called 911. And so the rest of my, the rest of my high school career was spent trying to relearn everything. Like I spent the next two months in the hospital. I had emergency surgery to kind of stabilize my back, and then and then I was in the hospital for two months just going through therapy to try to physical therapy, occupational therapy, to see how much of the use of my limbs I could recover and also learn how to function. And so I after that I was confined to a wheelchair and yeah so what was that?
Speaker 2:had what was running through your mind Once you realize your legs weren't working anymore? I mean you're, you're, you're 14 by that point, so you're pretty grown. I mean, what's going through your mind?
Speaker 1:I think I mean, initially you're just, you're just in shock, like the moment of. You know, I'm just crying, partly because it's scary, partly because the pain was incredible and so and, and then those kind of whirlwind, you know, you're kind of moving through the. You know I was helicoptered over to Rochester, moving through the ER, going through a bunch of tests, talking to doctors, but I'm 14, I don't really understand. But fortunately, you know, my, my stepmom, is a nurse practitioner and so I was actually at the hospital that she was serving at and so she was able to visit and she was actually such a huge resource for me and my dad and my mom as well, just to help understand, like and navigate a whole new world. So it was, it was scary and overwhelming.
Speaker 1:And early on the doctors they don't want to tell you that you don't have any chance of recovering Because if you work hard, what happened was my spinal cord was partially severed as a result of the shattering of the vertebrae, so there are still some nerves that were connected, and so the doctors really didn't know how much I could recover. And it takes years, like. Actually today I have more mobility than I've had since I was injured. Like I can. I have forearm crutches that I can use to get around and, you know, I still use a wheelchair for everyday use, just because of simplicity and ease, but yeah, so I guess the point of that is to say the doctors basically say we don't know how much you can recover, but here's the path to learn how to recover, and so physical therapy. So you're kind of just diving in and saying, okay, I got to do all these exercises that the therapist is telling me to do and at the same time I'm, you know, in ninth grade and I'm trying to catch up on school work and so, like a did you go back?
Speaker 2:to the same high school.
Speaker 1:I did. I had the city of Rochester paid for a tutor to come to the hospital to kind of help me through assignments while I was in the hospital, which was just great, and so so I did that. So, like I see, I was injured, I should have been February 21st 1997. So then I think I was released from the hospital early April and then started back at school in May. I don't, I don't know why I finished. I went to school before the school year finished, but I did so sometime in May. There's just for a few months, because I think school year ended in June. But yeah, I went back to the same high school and it was a small, like I said, it was a small Christian school, but the school was really great. They kind of made sure that all my classes were on the same floor and yeah, the students and your friends respond to you coming back in a wheelchair.
Speaker 1:Really well. Yeah, I think that was one of the real blessings of it is I think they really, yeah, they really work to help make the school more accessible for me. And yeah, my friends really work to kind of keep me to be part of the community as much as possible. So, like I didn't get my license until much later in life driver's license and so but I had friends then they would, they would make sure to carry me in my wheelchair around wherever and yeah, so I feel like I was really fortunate to have people who cared about me and, yeah, made me feel included. So that was huge. And the other, the other thing is just one of the other things that helped me integrate or not integrate, that's not the word, I don't know what the word is Kind of get me back into normal routine and figure out that life is still livable after such an immense change is.
Speaker 1:I got involved in a wheelchair After basketball league. I played basketball when I was before I was injured. I was on the like junior varsity team and on the varsity team for a year and I was very bad basketball not very bad I was, but I was a I would ride the ride the pine, but I really enjoyed basketball and so once, once, I kind of had figured out how to use the wheelchair. There's a ton of resources for people who have spinal cord injuries and one of them is this thing called the National Spinal Cord Injury Association, and then I met people through there and then I got connected to the wheelchair basketball team and so so I had like a group of friends in high school that made me feel like I was a part of that community, but also this other community of guys who were in wheelchairs, and a lot of them were much, much older than me they're in their 30s, 40s, 20s, 30s and 40s at the time. And then myself and two other kids of my age applied to join the team at the same time. So it kind of came on as, like the junior members and the older guys took us under their wing and that was great.
Speaker 1:We would. It's part of the National Wheelchair Basketball Association. So I like to tell people that I was a professional basketball player earlier in my life. But yeah, we would travel around the Northeast to play teams in Ohio and Pennsylvania and it was really fun. We'd have overnight trips and that was just. It was really huge. For me it's like oh, life goes on and I could still go and stay in hotels and go out to restaurants and watch my older teammates get completely inebriated at restaurants and make fools of themselves and I just think that there's that life goes on. So that was a huge part of me learning how to live life after that injury.
Speaker 2:Okay. So I guess joining that league, because what's happening is like after a really terrible injury like that, where it feels like I'm never gonna have a normal life again, this was your first glimpse into. Maybe it doesn't have to be this way and I could have. I could have a normal life and experience the things that other people experience as well.
Speaker 1:Exactly yeah.
Speaker 2:And this was before college.
Speaker 1:This was all before college, yeah.
Speaker 2:My gosh. Yeah, this was all before college. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I know I've had a lot of experience with some things. For sure. Yeah, that was all before college and that was all of that was kind of playing into as I was trying to figure out where I was gonna go to college. I think kind of the taste of the bigger world that the basketball team allowed me made me really want to try to go to school somewhere else in the country where I didn't know what it was like, just kind of see the see the larger world. And so, yeah, I applied to UNC and got in and I went down to visit and it was very, very warm. It was like in April and my dad and stepmom took me down to visit and I was wearing sweaters all the way down and then I got down and it was warm. I was like this is great, there's no snow, this is wonderful, and yeah. And so I decided to go and also just wanted a chance to see if I could make it on my own, because I was.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think learning how to take care of yourself after you have an injury is just, it's multifaceted, right. It's not just you can't walk and so you have to figure out how to get around, but there's like there's like medical conditions and effects that you kind of have to manage, and so I was relying on my parents for a much of that early on. And so I was like towards the end of my high school like I'd learned how to kind of take care of those medical needs myself but also just wanted to see, hey, can I, can I do life on my own? Like I don't want to. It'd be very easy just to stay at home or stay near home and just rely on my parents, who would be more than happy to help. But yeah, I wanted to. I wanted to see the larger role but also kind of see if I had what it takes to make it, and so I think that was part of the desire as well.
Speaker 2:Where do you I mean, where do you think that even came from? Was it seeing your mom kind of fighting for herself to be self-sufficient? Because I feel like that's such a short period of time to go through all that? And then on, you know, at that point for you to say, I want to see if I can do it, that alone, that desire alone, seems like that takes a lot, that takes a certain type of person or mindset to even have that desire, because, like you said, you could stay home, be comfortable, be taking care of them, like no things are going to be okay. But where did that come from?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know. I think there's, like my wife, Esther and I, we talk about this a bit of just like how you know just how, because there's a lot of other choices we, you know I could have made or that other people make and it might have been a better choice for them. But yeah, I think it was watching my mom, yeah, to overcome her adversity and thrive and set us up for success, and I don't know, it just didn't. It just felt like. It felt like I had a choice and there's pathways you can take and some lead you to stay the same or become smaller, and some will help you grow and become a better person or a stronger person. And I don't know, I think I just I've always wanted to be the type of person that would have the courage to take the hard path because it's, because it's worth it for myself, but also for the world, right.
Speaker 2:Like but did you ever you ever have a moment of self pity or kind of?
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, Hi. Yeah, I think trying to recall. Yeah, there were. I mean, there was tons of stuff that he liked. There are just, there are just things that, yeah, I just missed out on because because of my injury. Like I I am so fortunate and like I have a wonderful wife who loves me dearly and who I love more than anything.
Speaker 1:But back in high school, like man, I couldn't, I didn't have any. I took, I think I took people to prom but I think I pardon me, wondered if they just went with me because they felt pity for me. Like I just didn't feel like I was attractive or desirable and I couldn't do those things. That kind of made, that kind of separated potential mates from others. You know, like I wasn't athletically gifted like in kind of the classic way, or I couldn't drive a car at that point to pick them up, or you know, like it was just like I had like a lot of the kind of the normalcy of teenage experience like where you kind of you know, go on dates and take people, meet people at parties and do those sort of things. Like those were kind of taken from me, and so I think I experienced a lot of sadness about missing those. Like again, I had friends who would, would take me to concerts and do things like that. So I feel like I had a measure of it, but kind of the the ability to make choices and be independent.
Speaker 1:I was, I missed out on some of that and so I think part of that was what motivated me to go to North Carolina was just like this is this is me making an independent choice, like I can go and I'll figure it out when I'm there, like I'll live on campus and yeah. So, yeah, I think there's. I don't think that I think we're all human. Like I don't think there's people who go through life unaffected or maybe there are, but I Like.
Speaker 1:So I say that to say like I think sometimes when I tell my story to people, they're, they just are in awe or be like I can never do that and it's like no, no, you can, you do it every day and you make the choices every day and those are courageous choices and some of them seem small. I think some of the some of the things that, some of the things that become interesting about my story is just because the circumstances are abnormal right, the injury, the paralysis, but it's the thought process and the choice process is the same. As you know, anyone who has to you know kind of choose who they want to be and what they want to become and which path they want to take Right.
Speaker 2:And I think that I mean. You know, irregardless of some of the more extraordinary events that happened in your life, grit to me for you is a consistent characteristic over time. I think by now I've known you maybe 10 years now and I feel that it's not, it's not in you know, I don't, I didn't know you when you were a teenager, but even the time that I've known you, it's kind of like what you said you're, you're, it's in your day to day. You're one of you and S for one of those few people who go into the hard places, have difficult conversations, or if someone's in a really difficult place, you're there, you guys go.
Speaker 2:There's something difficult, you know there's this, there's element of perseverance there and I think you're right, like I think we all have that choice. But I think what I would love to kind of unpack more for people listening is in whatever area in your life where you do feel helpless or I think a lot of us get stuck in that place where you can't make that. Yet I don't know why they can't make that choice for themselves, but it's like trying to understand more of what motivates you or you know how maybe we can encourage other people that they do have the ability to maybe live the life that they want or not to feel self pity, because I think we all feel that for ourselves from time to time or more often than others. So, yeah, I mean, like, how do you do it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, there's a. There's a book by an author that I know you've heard of his name, cs Lewis, and it's a book called mere Christianity, and I don't know where all the listeners are in terms of faith, but it's a helpful book, I think, whether or not you want to become a Christian or a Christian or not, but something he said in there, I think has I read it when I was. I think, yeah, I think I read it when I was in high school and it's kind of stuck with me has been that we are always. Is it there? I forget. I think it's there and I think he expands on it in other essays.
Speaker 1:But we're always making choices every day to either become something glorious or something incredibly evil, like it's kind of. But it's a journey. That's this path, and he's talking about it in terms of how a loving God can send people to hell, and I don't know where I stand on that. But I do think his point is is you're making these choices, small choices, every day, and they become easier to make in the same direction, and so, if you want to be more courageous, just start being more courageous in little things, like I remember when I was in high school it was so hard for me to like order a pizza, like my mom be like, hey, order a pizza, and I would like be so scared to like pick up the phone and call, and it was just so weird. Like I know it's a normal conversation, but it's just seems so intimidating, like what if I didn't know what to say? Or like what if I get it wrong? Or you know what if they don't? If I say the address, you know, like there's just and, or I just like, or I'd have to make another phone call to someone that I had it crush on, or something like you just. But you kind of just sit there and you kind of say, well, what am I going to do? I can choose not to do this, or I can just push the numbers, I could do it.
Speaker 1:But it's those little choices of saying, hey, I want to do what's right, I want to, and even though it's scary, even though it's hard, like like I just I need to take this next step and it actually, it actually has turned out to be true in my life that those small choices every day, or you know, whenever they pop up, that it's made those those bigger choices. I was gonna say easier, but not not easier. I mean, they were super hard. I'm sure we'll get to that some of those choices later on in this conversation but it's made them doable, made them possible, and I think it's just because of we are always, we're always in the process of becoming who we're, we're, we're going to be, and and so it's a small things of like, if you see someone or you're one of your friends in pain and you're also having a bad day, you could ignore them because you're like you know, I'm having a bad day too.
Speaker 1:Or you can make the choice of like no, I'm gonna care for them, and and then they'll respond. Hopefully they'll respond and help care for me as well, and we can do this together. But to always make the choice to kind of move towards people and to to be the one to move first I think a lot of times we wait for other people or other things to kind of get in line. So it we like when that happens, then I can definitely move in. But that's not, that doesn't happen. Like things don't line up, the stars don't align unless you move first and, and so I think it's a, it's a long.
Speaker 1:Another author kind of talks about as a long obedience in the same direction and and I think that's right like, yeah, if you have a vision of what kind of person do you want to be when things are hard or when life throws things at you that you don't think you can take like, and then if you have that vision in your mind and say like, well, what, what, what does that mean? I have to start learning how to do now.
Speaker 2:Do you think that people, what about? In those scenarios? You're afraid you'll be forgotten or your pain is not addressed, because I think to your example, I'm having a bad day and this person having a bad day, but what about me? You know, it's that mindset I think a lot of us have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think. I think there's two angles to take on that, and I think you have to take both of them, because one on one on by itself is not enough. But the first one is is to really see, to learn how to take care of yourself and that sounds a little pithy, but to recognize, hey, I'm having a bad day. Okay, why am I having a bad day? What am I feeling Like? How do I need to take care of myself? And knowing that you have the resources, like you've developed the internal resources to be like okay, I can like, whether it's meditation or praying or whatever kind of care or practices that you've built into your life, that you to know that you like, if you're having a bad day, to be like, okay, I'm having a bad day, but it's not the end of the world. Like I can, I'm gonna be okay, and you know that because you've learned how to take care of yourself. That's part of the picture is to say I don't need, I don't need people to, I don't need other people to make sure that I'm okay. I don't need like like it's wonderful if they do. And I think that's the second step is because when you're confident that you're like I can, I know what I can do, what it takes to make sure that I'm okay or I, and one of those steps is asking other people for help. But it's having the courage to ask and it's also having built up the capital and relationships so that when you ask it's reciprocated, and both of those things take time.
Speaker 1:But I think a lot of times we just expect other people to take care of us and we don't realize that at the exact same time they're expecting the same thing and so then no one's taking care of each other.
Speaker 1:But if we learned to ask, if we learned how to also have the own internal resources, that we can take care of ourselves and also have other people take care of us, it's like this mutuality thing, and I think sometimes we look at relationships well, if I take care of other people, then they'll take care of me, and it's like no, no, no, like you can do a lot of things for yourself and then you can invite other people to help you in those areas that you can't and, depending on where you are in life and how much trauma you're going through at the moment, like you might need people to do more for you than you can do for yourself in that moment, right yeah, like when I was injured, I needed people to push me around.
Speaker 1:Like I don't need that right now and so I'm not gonna ask people to do it for me. And so I think having this sense of self-sufficiency but self-sufficiency is it's a to have an accurate portrayal of yourself, be like I can do this much and for other things, like I need to build a community and lean on that community for those things. And so it's not like this complete self-sufficiency that I don't need other people or don't rely on people, like I'm not trying to be an island or just a completely isolated, completely self-sufficient person. There's no such thing but to know that I have the resources because I've developed them over time and I've made sure. So I don't know. Does that answer your question?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think that's. I'm really glad you made that distinction of being able to take care of yourself and not being an island, cause I do think that's sort of the misconception of that idea. And do you know Esther Perle, the therapist, relationship, marriage and family therapist? She's awesome and she writes a lot about like relationships and has podcasts and all this stuff, and she had this article out that we, we have a misconception of what self-care is, and it's to your point, it's not about being an island. She said when did we, when did we, you know, believe, like, begin to believe, that we're able to do everything on our own and we don't need everybody else? But I think I was gonna ask you, though, for those who don't know that they're going to be okay, what are some ways they can start practicing developing those skills for themselves, but knowing that they can be okay?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1:In one of my lifetimes I got a master's degree in counseling and I remember as part of that I would study a series of different therapy techniques and this different approaches to just how we grow as human beings, and one of them that was really compelling to me and has stuck with me to this day is this it's narrative therapy and there's kind of a different forms, but essentially it's just recognizing that we are at all times telling a story about ourselves and the world and we're living out that story.
Speaker 1:And the premise of narrative therapy is to say let's look at the story that someone is telling about themselves and then help them ask that question is that true? And if it's not, and what if it's not? Cause I think a lot of times, for example, if you look at the facts of my story, for example, there's a way to tell it in which I'm a victim and I've just had these terrible circumstances happen to me in life and in some sense that would be true. It could be a very plausible narrative and you could say well, I just yeah, this is just life, life, just you work really hard and then something comes and just boom, you can't walk.
Speaker 1:I remember even approaching that. I was in college and I was visiting a family member and a person who lived with that family member was an older woman and she was on social security disability at the time and she just looked at me. She was like why are you in college? She was like you have a disability, you can just stay on disability and get a check, you don't need to do all that. And it was just a surprising question. I didn't even know how to answer it because it just was totally against the way that I understood my life and kind of moving.
Speaker 1:But I think that's the narrative coming in. Like what narratives are you telling myself, well, I'm disabled, like I can't do it, like, and but if you learn to retell that narrative to say I know what if this is, what if that's not the true story about me? And what if I'm different? And the way you do that is not by making stuff up, it's just kind of saying, hey, what are counter narratives to that narrative? And this, because we all have those stories right when you know, maybe we haven't lived the life that we wanted to, but you can kind of see, like there's moments where you were that person that you wanted to be and to say, you know that that time that you know, I was really sad and depressed but you know, this friend reached out for help and I was able to just call her and just listen and tell her I love her and bring her some soup or something. You know, like there's like these, these moments that we all have that are heroic and we just don't recognize them because we're so caught up in telling this negative narrative about ourselves. And so I think for people to be like, if you're sitting here and you're thinking, I don't have the resources, I don't have the internal resources, I'm not enough, I think to say that's not the true story. There are times that you have not felt like you've had enough, that's true, but there are times where you've acted against that, that you were able to be there for someone, or you're able to overcome an obstacle and you succeeded where you were able to be there, where you didn't think you would, and to start remembering those moments and start telling that your story, with those moments in mind, I think that could be so powerful, like there was a time when I was I was in graduate school, so I got a master's in divinity and a master's in counseling and it was actually it wasn't until I was in graduate school that I really started to deal with like the emotional impact and the spiritual impact of like my injury. And I entered a depression and it was really low and I actually considered taking my own life.
Speaker 1:And I remember going to a therapist and he gave me a short story to read. It's not a story, but it's an essay called A Room Called Remember by Frederick Buchner, and but my assignment that week was just to remember, and so I just remember like I went through, I took out all these photographs that I had for my childhood, all the way up to the present, and I just I realized that and I think this is where the kind of the narrative therapy or the narrative idea took hold in me is I realized that when I was depressed, all I could think about was really the negative moments in my life and those are the ones that were kind of bringing out to the forefront. But when you look at pictures, right, you often take pictures of the bright moments in your life, and so what I realized was that in my depression I was missing a large piece of that of the story and that was a true part of the story. Like all the really good things and beautiful things that have happened to me that are outside of my control as well, like the people that were so kind to my mom and my sister and I growing up, or the friends in high school, or the friends in college, or the doctors and the nurses that helped me as I tried to recover after the injury, like there's just like our lives are shot through with so many beautiful moments that are sometimes sometimes they're us, you know. They're beautiful things that we've done and to honor those. Acknowledge those. And a lot of times it's beautiful things that other people have done and to honor those. Acknowledge that as well.
Speaker 1:And I think when you start to understand your life, looking at both at the shadows and the light, getting the full picture, you realize that you were okay the whole time and that helps you when you think about the future to be like you know the future is going to be just like that, like there are going to be some really tragic, hard, terrible moments of shadow.
Speaker 1:There are going to be these points of light, these moments, these people, these times where I am better than I ever thought I could be, or kinder or more good, or people are more kind than I ever thought they would be, and to know that that's just going to happen. And so the mystery becomes less mysterious, when you realize this is the world, this is the world and I made it this far. And I made it because I was strong in these moments, like because, if you're here, you made it. And I think that's the thing, that in the middle of when things are low or you're feeling down, like you're like shoot, I'm not where I want it to be in life, but you're here and you made it. And to kind of honor the things that got you here, and then to move into those and retell your story in a way that frees you to become more and more the person you want to be.
Speaker 2:So I won't go into the details of the situation, but I know that you've recently gone through something very difficult and very challenging, and maybe you can even consider it life changing. But I'm curious to know are you able to apply your experience to your future outlook on things?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I'm on better days for sure, like I think that's the I think that's one of the points of it is it's not like I've become Zen or anything.
Speaker 1:I'm still cynical and I still have days where I'm just like I don't understand people and they're acting crazy and I'm angry at them. But I think that has given me the ability to weather this better than other people. Just because I'm like this is round three, like for a lot of other people it's round one, and they're like oh, oh, shit, this is terrible. And I'm like, yeah, it is really terrible. But yeah, it's like round, I don't know. Like when you kind of lose your dad and you like for a time, and like you grow up like in poverty and then you like become paralyzed and then you have to kind of rebuild your life after that, yeah, you just it just becomes a little easier to kind of pick up the pieces again.
Speaker 1:And yeah, I think I think a cynical way is to be like well, if the pieces are going to keep me knocked down, then why do I keep putting them up again?
Speaker 1:Yes, good question, and I think there's two answers.
Speaker 1:That one is I think that life is a gift and every minute of life is a gift, like there's been a longer period in the universe that we have not existed than when we have existed, like you and me and the people listening to this, like, and then when we die, we're going to be gone and whatever happens after death you know we don't know for sure right now, and so like just to say, hey, this, even if I believe that something good and beautiful is going to happen after death, like that doesn't mean that this life isn't good and beautiful and worth living to the full.
Speaker 1:And so I think that's part of it is just your other choices just to give up on living and you're going to miss that on so much. And but I think another piece of it is you know, every time you pick up the pieces and build again, you're going to do that with the knowledge that you learned from the last time and and hopefully that knowledge will make you a better builder and make you build a better life and make you a better builder. I think my injury Help me change what my definition of a successful life would be like you know like it does.
Speaker 1:I think, yeah, I'm trying to, I'm pausing because I don't know exactly how to articulate, I don't even know if I really knew it at the time. I mean, ninth graders really have a philosophy of life anyways, so trying to think of how much it changed. But I think one of the things I learned out of it is just like when I got to do normal things again, like when I was like released from the hospital to go on day trips, to go see a movie where I wasn't surrounded by people and hospital beds and nurses and stuff like that was part of the occupational therapy, like they'd send you out to do things and you kind of you learn to see the wonder and every day, and, and so I don't know, I feel like a successful life is one in which Now, you don't lose that wonder and you are good and kind towards other people and you are loved and other people, yeah, and you love other people. And the thing that's beautiful about defining success in that way is, I think that's something that we can all achieve, we can all be, you know, whatever, whatever we're trying to get to, and and I think that I think ambition is good and striving after becoming the best version of yourself that you can is good. But if you. We constantly try to define success in our, in our world, as compared to other people. But what that means is that it's a. It's a. It's a closed pie, like only some people can have it and then some people can't. But if, if the definition of success is life well lived, where you love others and others love you, and the world is better because you're in it, that's an unlimited pie and we can keep batting to it. And what that means is that my success doesn't have to cause someone else to not be successful and other and other persons success doesn't keep me from feeling successful like I think in the.
Speaker 1:In the latest iteration of my life, I went to law school and you know, law school can be so competitive because you're like I'm going to be, like they rank you, like they literally rank you at the end of each year and you're like man.
Speaker 1:There are X number people in front of me and there are X number of people behind me, and what does that say about me? And the reality is, this is absolutely nothing about you. It's how well you did on a test, and that can be as affected by things as you know how much sleep you got versus how much you're paying attention to class where that subject was covered versus the class where the other subjects weren't paying attention to. But you just that is an example like there's. Just all these things that can just like the measurements we use for success can be distorted, especially when we use them in comparison to other people. But if you, if you let, if you let catastrophe be in a way that you can learn how to see success and see your life in a different way, and it becomes a better world for you and then for people around you, and I don't know if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I like that. I like the pie analogy. You know, as a counselor, you've counseled many people. What do you think is? Do you see a pattern of what holds people back?
Speaker 1:That's a good question. Think fear, and people fear different things, and so people might be fear of what other people think, or other people might be fear of failure, or fear of instability, or fear of the unknown, but I think fear is the thing that keeps us all back. So I think a lot, of, a lot of my time was spent on challenging that fear to be like what? What is that based on? And is that true? And especially when there are fears based on like what could happen in the future, it's just, I mean, there's risk management and then there's, like you know, then there's just living out of fear, and I think we do the ladder more than a former.
Speaker 1:I remember I think I've told you the story before, melissa, but, like when I was, I finished seminary and I finished my master's in counseling as well, and I was I was working at it as an intern at a church and I was kind of weighing two different opportunities. One was a little more risky than the other and I remember going to go back to my hometown to be a hospital chaplain. Another one was to come out to Los Angeles and be a pastor or a church out there or out here.
Speaker 1:And I remember talking to different people and I just remember talking to my stepmom and she said go to Los Angeles. She was like, because if that doesn't work out, then you can always come home and stay in our basement and figure things out. But that's the I know that's the riskier one, but yeah, like, like if it doesn't, if it doesn't happen, then what's? We're just going to end up back in your hometown, which is where the other job is anyway. So it's like, why not take that risk? And yeah, I think that was so huge to realize that they were.
Speaker 1:There are very few decisions that can't be undone.
Speaker 1:I'm trying to think, if I have the negatives, but a lot, most decisions we have in our lives we can take, we can take back, we can unwind, which means we need to be very careful about the ones that we can't unwind, like having children, you know, like getting married and contracting with another person to have your life bound to theirs, like those are big decisions that are hard to undo but it can't be undone.
Speaker 1:But most things are not like that, like you can kind of go out, try it and if you fail, like it's okay.
Speaker 1:Like there are, yeah, you can unwind that, and even as I'm saying that, I recognize that part of that can be a sense of privilege, like there are a lot of people in this world that maybe that doesn't feel as true for right, like am I? Like I had parents who had a basement I could stay in. They weren't super wealthy, but they had a basement I could stay in. And so I recognize that and I think we have to acknowledge that and be grateful for things that we have and make sure that we are there for people who don't have that. And I think that's something that Esther and I have tried to do. When there are people and you've seen it so when there are people who are trying to weigh out what they're doing in the future, we're like well, if it doesn't work out, you can come and stay in our back house. You know, like I think that's one way we can pay it forward is to help be the safety net for people if they don't have it in their community right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean and like full disclosure. You know I was recording a podcast with June and Juliet I think you remember me, the family I used to name you for and I was telling them it was. It was them like seeing them and living with you and Esther. And you know, obviously for people who are listening, you know this because I was living with you but essentially I was homeless. You know, I didn't have anywhere to go and you and Esther were super generous and let me stay with you guys for free, if I can tell people that. You know, and I think for so long I had this, I had this. I don't know it's I'm sure it's the whole psychology behind it, but one of the things I saw was, you know, being successful in the material sense or having wealth. It it was a reflection of a negative characteristic about you and I think also for me personally, it was a.
Speaker 2:In that time of my life I think I did have this very like victim mentality or someone else is going to help me, or whatever the case might be. But living with you and with June and Juliet, I think for the first time I just saw the goodness of having those kinds of resources, because, while so many friends were kind with their words and those things are important too I experienced the power of having resources, like you and Esther's could say, hey, come stay with us, and that was life saving, because I was so low on any form of cash and it was in that front room. When I was staying in that front room, I have this vivid memory where I just said to myself I was just like what am I doing? What am I doing with myself? I'm just here, this, woodling my life away and, you know, just being around you guys and I've known this about you guys for so long, because this is what you guys do, I think, in your everyday lives but to experience that firsthand from you guys, it really changed. It honestly just woke me up and yeah, I don't know, I guess I just wanted to. I don't know if I ever told you guys that, but it completely like shifted my point of view and how I live my life and just saw how good you could be with having resources or I don't know. I just saw the power in it and it was. I was like I want to be that person too.
Speaker 2:If someone ever needed help, like I can say, hey, here's a few bucks, or come stay with me, have the space, but I'm here being helpless, like I need a room to stay in, you know? So yeah, anyways, I don't know why I forgot, why I was telling you that story originally. But so, random question though, for for for many of us, I think, in ways we are, we do compare ourselves to others and we do, we are judgmental of other people as well, and I think, for some of us, what we'll do and I'm guilty of this we'll look at someone and say like, why can't this person just get it together? I mean, how would you, how would you counsel people like me or others who might be judgy of other people?
Speaker 1:Well, full disclosure. I can easily be judgmental of other people as well, I think. I think that's something we call can be guilty of. I think the goal is is is always empathy is to to really understand their story enough so that you could put yourself in it to understand, like, why they are exactly where they are.
Speaker 1:Very few people go through life saying I'm going to make irrational decision after irrational decision and end up in a completely crazy world. They, like every decision they make makes sense to them at the time. They feel like this is the only choice, this is or this is the best choice available to them at the time. And on the outside it may not feel that way. To be like you had so many other options and, yeah, I've had so many friends and family members who make choices that I think, like that's just that's just crazy. Like why would you do that makes no sense whatsoever. But you realize how they got there. I was through a series of small decisions and they felt trapped and they felt like that was their best answer. Yeah, they felt like this is the way to get, get what they want.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like I have seen, I've seen people who kind of consistently enter into relationships like this is, oh my god, she would just consistently enter into relationships that were unhealthy, abusive, and, as we were talking to her, like, why are you doing this? Like this makes, like you know, you were in like three of these before. And part of it is just, she did not value herself and did not see her own true worth, and so why would she expect a guy to value her when she's like, doesn't value herself, she's like, oh, he sees me exactly as I see myself, which is worthless, and that's the. That was the problem. So that was part of it. And then also part of it is, you know, the things that she had kind of set up in her life of what was the ultimate value, and it was romantic love. That was the ultimate value and everything else could be sacrificed at the altar of that value.
Speaker 1:And like that's something that she had to unlearn and and she did and and, yeah, I think the more we can understand and have compassion on why people end up in the positions they do, that gives us empathy and care. So we're not, we're not as dismissive or judgmental of them. So realize, hey, if, if I had, if I had lived their life like everything, like the losses they experienced as a child, the decisions they were forced to make, the pain that they've gone through. You know who's to say I wouldn't have ended up in the same spot and and so that then that then we start to stop thinking of them as crazy or illogical and then we just be like, wow, like how can I, how can I help? And that also gives you the ability to know how to speak into their pain, to be able to say that's not true, you're not worthless, you like that.
Speaker 1:You know, romantic love is not the only way you're ever gonna find acceptance in this world, like there, there are so many people here who love you and care for you and that is a beautiful piece and I hope you have that one day, the romantic love. But it's not. That's not all you need, and and you can't keep sacrificing yourself and everything, everything you value, just to try to have this one thing yeah, and so empathy, really understanding, like, and, and that that gives you the tools to not be judgmental but also to speak into it, and you're more likely to be received well when you're, when you're speaking from empathy. Those are, yeah, that's, that's what I thought of when you ask the question that's good, all right, so just to wrap things up.
Speaker 2:So final question is what would you tell your younger self?
Speaker 1:yeah, I, I think I would say it's gonna be okay and don't be afraid. And yeah, your, your life is gonna be so much better than you ever imagined. Like, yeah, I feel like I've been, I've been through the ringer, as we've talked about, like I've been through a lot of, a lot of different crises and we didn't even talk about all of them but also feel like I've had really amazing opportunities and I've been able to see the world and have yeah, just have amazing experiences. Yeah, so I think that's it's gonna be okay, don't be afraid. And I think, at the moment that you feel like you're losing everything is also the moment that you have to reshape your life into something better and and and so I think that's something I'm still learning to this day.
Speaker 1:I've just had a both like fully grieve and be sad for when things are really falling down and falling apart for yourself or and so many other people, and to be to really own that and say this is really sad and this is bad, but also have the courage and the strength to so what can I? What can I learn from this? How can I grow? And because if you, if you take the time for that, you, you will grow. That that's, in fact, the only way to grow is to see what happens when things go wrong and then make choices based on that. And yeah, I think that's something I'm still trying to practice to this day and but yeah, that's what I, I think my younger self especially, especially after- I was injured.
Speaker 1:Like you know, you kind of think that life was over. You know you can't walk and yeah, but it wasn't. It wasn't by long shot.