Ever felt the pressure of societal expectations weighing down on you, dictating the career path you ought to take? Join me, as I sit down with Tae Kim, the Financial Tortoise, in a heart-to-heart conversation that challenges these norms and offers insights into finding harmony between amassing wealth and personal contentment. Our guest Tae presents a compelling narrative of his life's journey, from his early days as an immigrant to his audacious career shifts, all in the pursuit of following his heart.
Navigating life as the child of immigrants brings unique hurdles, and in this heartfelt exchange, Tae and I delve into these battles. We discuss the generational shifts in education, the quest for financial security, and the transformative value of mentorship. Sharing personal transitions, from my time in academia and the military to finance, we underscore the importance of introspection and bravery in steering our professional lives. This episode peels back the layers of our identities to reveal the importance of aligning careers with our evolving values and passions.
What does it truly mean to take control of your financial destiny? We tackle this head-on by chronicling our own experiences of debt repayment, lifestyle frugality, and career transformations, like venturing into YouTube entrepreneurship. The conversation goes beyond traditional narratives, touching upon the emotional complexities of major life decisions and the power of a steady financial approach. If you're itching for a dose of inspiration to craft a life that resonates deeply with who you are, this episode is an invitation to redefine success on your terms.
👉 Financial Tortoise
Thank you for listening!
Do you know someone or have a topic you would like featured on the podcast? Leave a review and let me know! I'd love to hear from you!
Ever felt the pressure of societal expectations weighing down on you, dictating the career path you ought to take? Join me, as I sit down with Tae Kim, the Financial Tortoise, in a heart-to-heart conversation that challenges these norms and offers insights into finding harmony between amassing wealth and personal contentment. Our guest Tae presents a compelling narrative of his life's journey, from his early days as an immigrant to his audacious career shifts, all in the pursuit of following his heart.
Navigating life as the child of immigrants brings unique hurdles, and in this heartfelt exchange, Tae and I delve into these battles. We discuss the generational shifts in education, the quest for financial security, and the transformative value of mentorship. Sharing personal transitions, from my time in academia and the military to finance, we underscore the importance of introspection and bravery in steering our professional lives. This episode peels back the layers of our identities to reveal the importance of aligning careers with our evolving values and passions.
What does it truly mean to take control of your financial destiny? We tackle this head-on by chronicling our own experiences of debt repayment, lifestyle frugality, and career transformations, like venturing into YouTube entrepreneurship. The conversation goes beyond traditional narratives, touching upon the emotional complexities of major life decisions and the power of a steady financial approach. If you're itching for a dose of inspiration to craft a life that resonates deeply with who you are, this episode is an invitation to redefine success on your terms.
👉 Financial Tortoise
Thank you for listening!
Do you know someone or have a topic you would like featured on the podcast? Leave a review and let me know! I'd love to hear from you!
Welcome to Making Way. I'm your host, melissa Park. Making Way is a podcast about finding your own way in life. We explore the journeys of inspiring individuals who have forged their own path in life. I want you to embrace your individuality and create a life that truly reflects who you are. That is at the heart of this podcast. So many of us want to be free and dream of another life, but oftentimes we are held back by our fears Fear of the unknown, fear of being wrong, fear of being different. When I have these feelings or questions, I like to take a huge step back and ask myself what is at stake if I don't do this.
Speaker 2:If I could see exactly where I'm going to be in this pathway 10 years from now. For some people I think that could be comforting. For me, that scares me and then, I think, pushes me away Because I was like you know, life is about, you know, learning new things and experiencing new things that I have no idea that exist.
Speaker 1:I discovered today's guest while listening to another podcast. After hearing his episode, I immediately emailed him to invite him on my show. Today's guest is Tae Kim, also known as the Financial Tortoise. Usually, personal finance content creators say something like do this to 10X your wealth how I went from broach a millionaire by 22. But Tae's message was different. His message was slow and steady wins the race. He seems sincere and level-headed in his approach, but what really hooked me in to reach out to him was his thoughts about having enough money. Today's episode is not about personal finance, although we do talk about it some. It's really about knowing yourself, facing your fears and making a huge career change, even if you're deep into one. I could have talked to Tae for hours. This was such a fun conversation. I hope you enjoyed it too. Hey, how's it going?
Speaker 2:Good, how are you, melissa?
Speaker 1:I'm doing well. It's so nice to meet you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Thanks for making the time to do this and to chat with me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, of course. Thanks for inviting me.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Where are you located?
Speaker 2:Orange County, California.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, very nice. Well, thank you again for being on the podcast.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, of course.
Speaker 1:I literally listened to Bigger Pockets and I heard you and I was like I have to reach out to this guy Just because he was so on point with so much of like. You know, this is the theme of the season and I think this is kind of the zone that we're in which is you know how do we build our wealth, but how do we, like you know, I think people are very skeptical of like hustle culture now too, and I think it was very compelling what you were saying and your story as well.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I'm excited to listen to your story and learn more about it. Where are you from?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so currently, right now I live in Orange County, california. I have been married for over 12 years. I have two kids that are 10 and seven.
Speaker 1:Did you grow up in Orange County?
Speaker 2:Somewhat. I immigrated from Korea when I was nine and then we settled in Orange County. I left for a little bit, I was in the military for a little while and then I came back for grad school and then got married after I came back. But yeah, I mean most of my life I've been in Orange County, california.
Speaker 1:Oh, very nice. What was it like immigrating when you were nine to California? Was it kind of like not easy, but like because Orange County is a huge Asian and Korean population there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, now it does. I think when I was growing up in the 90s or the 80s there was pockets of Koreans in LA, in Friya Town in LA, and then there was pockets of Koreans in Orange County, but it wasn't as it's not as it wasn't as like extensive as it's now. So, yeah, when I first immigrated from Korea as a nine year old, I back then in Korea. They didn't teach alphabet or anything like that, so I came straight without knowing any English. There was no ESL either. There was no ESL class. So then I remember being like the only Asian kid in my class. So I guess you know, traumatized is one word I think to describe it. Looking back, you know, try to look at it in a positive way of those character building helped me to really build resilience.
Speaker 1:What were you traumatized by?
Speaker 2:by the move I think just a culture kind of tied to a bit of a financial, like one of the reasons why our family immigrated here was to have a new financial start. So like my parents went through a bankruptcy in Korea and then they wanted a clean slate and then want to start here. He had some friends here so that brought us here.
Speaker 1:Do you remember that being in Korea and when your parents were going through the bankruptcy like? Do you have memories of that?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, very distinctly. Oh, wow, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think I was like eight or nine. So I grew up in Busan in Korea. So then not, not in Seoul, and then so it was, you know, like in Korea, as you know, most people live in Seoul, but then Busan is, I mean, it was it's a big city today, but it was still remote. I think there wasn't as much exposure to the rest of the world. The education system I remember like being in a classroom with like 50 other kids.
Speaker 1:Wow, 50.
Speaker 2:I just remember everything looking very cool in the school, like concrete floors, and then 50 other classrooms. You know you get smacked a lot. That was like you know they're still there in Korea. I still do multiplication in Korean in my head because I'm so traumatized by like having been. You know like they actually like smack you if you like. You know miss a number.
Speaker 1:So I guess it kind of quote unquote worked.
Speaker 2:It worked. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So then it's funny, like my last job I was a finance director, so I would constantly have to like run numbers and stuff and then people would see me like kind of mumbling like we were doing calculations and I would do. They would see me like mumbling something under my breath in Korean. They're like what are you doing? Oh, I still do multiplication in Korean and then I translate to English. They're like what? Like yeah, it's, it's. It's hard to explain, yeah.
Speaker 1:Have you ever blurted out the answer in Korean, because you were like so deep in that mode?
Speaker 2:I don't think I've done that yet.
Speaker 1:But yeah, yeah, I think I would catch myself.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I mean, back then it was a member, like in second grade or first grade, I think they would they would teach multiplication back then and then the way that our teacher taught us was she would go around and point at us and say six. And then we have to stand up and say six times one and six, six times two, as well as brute memorization, yeah. And then if you miss it, she came around and, like you know, ask you to stick your hand out and you know they smack you. So then you're just kind of that. You know that mental damage that you have emotional damage to to learn.
Speaker 2:So I remember when I first came to the States, the education system here is, you know, it's like much different. People are nicer. You know, if you don't do your homework, it's fine. Yeah, that would hit you and I was like this is amazing. But I think the other part was like from a cultural and financial perspective, because you know, we were trying to start a new life here. I think we didn't know the language, we were financially strapped and then we were just trying to make ends meet when we immigrated to. My teens was just a lot of financial struggle. Unfortunately, my parents went through another bankruptcy after coming here to the States, so we kind of hit it all right.
Speaker 2:In two different countries, two bankruptcies.
Speaker 1:What kind of business were they doing?
Speaker 2:Different types. I think it was more related to construction in Korea. Here is a printing business, yeah. So whatever they knew, like with our parents that grew up essentially baby boomers of Korea. They grew up post-Korean war and then, you know, they didn't have a lot of education. So it's whatever skill set that they had. Like my dad when he was in the army. He learned his printing skills when he was in the army. Like my mom, she worked at a knitting factory when she was growing up. So then those were the skill sets that they had, like just functional skill sets. So those were just what they were trying to. You know, either start a business or get a job. And you know just blue collar. You know jobs here in the States to make things work.
Speaker 2:And remember the other like memory I had when I was young too, was because of our bankruptcy. I remember like it wasn't like, you know, like the movies were being evicted from the house or, you know, throwing things out, but like we had to move out of the house because we couldn't afford it anymore, and so all of this happened before I was like 12 years old. Like you know, two bankruptcies and, you know, a home eviction. That's the reason why I have a personal finance YouTube channel today. It's probably the result of all the financial trauma that I received. Thus, I think, for me, one of the big themes as I was growing up was, I think, seeking financial security, financial wealth, and then it took me a little while. I had to make a lot of you know wrong pathways, because there's a lot of misinformation out there about personal finance, about money, but that's how I kind of ended up today having a personal finance YouTube channel as a middle-aged man. Are you the only?
Speaker 1:child or do you have siblings? I have a sibling, yeah.
Speaker 2:I have an older sister.
Speaker 1:Do you feel like your sister handled your parents' financial situation differently, or kind of she? Did she have a similar response to you, which was always seeking financial security?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think same in a lot of ways but also different. I think you see a lot of children of immigrant families that you know it's not. And then my story is not like unique in itself. You know, when I talked to a lot of my friends I mean it might not be that specific, you know incident, but then most immigrant children and families I can go through struggles cultural, you know integration, struggles financial, you know the feeling of not having enough, always kind of looking at people who are already integrated into the American society, into the mainstream, and we're constantly trying to seek a pathway to integrate into that mainstream. So I think that's what kind of drove, like my sister and I both, to like try to study, you know, and that's the only path we knew at the time was like you know that my parents could tell us was like study hard, you know, and then you can be that white collar worker that have a stable income, they have a home.
Speaker 2:They don't have to worry about trying to make ends meet, like trying to get a job here and there. So yeah, I mean I think my sister, she also recognized the hardship that we went through and then, I think, found their own add to stability in a different way, but, you know, in the same thing.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I do think you hit on a very poignant point, which is like our parents, like because my parents come from a very similar generation, which is right after the war I mean, I think they live probably during the war, but no, just I think right after it. Yeah, now that I'm older and I can kind of like maybe step away from my parents and kind of look at them more as people and like oh, why did they do what they do? And you know why do they always say like save your money or like go to college and stuff? And I think a lot of that has to do with the war. That's just something like I can't personally understand, like I don't know what it's like to grow up in a war torn country where you're hungry you know right Right.
Speaker 1:And you look at Korea now and like you would have never thought there was ever a war in that country, which is crazy in such a short period of time. So, with kind of that experience, what was your outlook in terms of going to college and your outlook in your future?
Speaker 2:I think the challenge of, I guess, as immigrant children whose parents are not integrated into mainstream society, is that you know they're telling us study hard, go to college, but then there's no guidance they can give us afterwards. So in a way I think I was seeking financial success, I was seeking career success, but in a way you're kind of flying half blind because you're like I'm gonna study hard but I don't know how the white, I don't know how the white collar corporate world works. I don't know anybody that's an adult at the time that could kind of say hey, this is a good pathway. You go talk to the career counselors in college. But it's a lot of times when you're young, a lot of it is going over your head At the time in a naive way. I was kind of like if I just study hard and get the best grades, I can make this work, and that was kind of, I guess, my mindset and for me.
Speaker 2:So I joined the army after college. So I did the ROTC program that helped me to pay for college and then I got a commission into US Army and then I served for six years afterwards. So that was kind of like my first foray into the adult I guess adult world in a way to integrate it into mainstream society. If I was a commissioned officer in the US Army, that helps me to find status and position and be able to integrate. So that was kind of like my initial pathway.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I mean, I think, going back, if I think back to now, when I was like 19, 18 years old, it's interesting now, like when I look at like I have a nephew that's in college, like that's 18, 19 years old, and then like the conversation I can have with him regarding his career path. So I go, have you thought about this, have you thought about that? Because I have gone through that pathway. I've known people.
Speaker 2:So I went to business school after the army, so like I know people who work in the corporate world, I know people who worked in the government side so I can have this conversation with him when I was 18, it was like it's like the best thing is what are you starting the movies right? And you're like that seems cool, I wanna do that, but there's no one to talk to to guide you. So but I mean, at the end of the day it worked out. But in a way I think to your question. Kind of blind, kind of naive, just work hard, study hard, get the best grades and just go out there. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean that doesn't seem that naive. I mean that seems like, that seems pretty good, like work hard and go out there and figure it out.
Speaker 2:Right right.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm curious, because you know you're an entrepreneur Would you consider yourself an entrepreneur?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes Okay.
Speaker 1:So you're an entrepreneur now and I'm sure you know we can get into all of this, but I guess it's. I'm curious to know what kind of advice you give your nephew now, because when I like even for me to be in where I am now and understanding a little bit about the corporate world, or understanding a little bit about business and like financial and tax structures in the US, I'm like would I give the same advice? You know? Yeah, what do you tell your nephew?
Speaker 2:I guess I don't really tell them what advice I think I try to ask them more probing questions, because I think the other question regarding, like, when I was growing up, when we're growing up, is like, what is it that you want? You know, like, what interests you Like?
Speaker 2:those were questions that were asked, you know, you just like yeah, yeah it's like you pursue careers that pay well, or I know someone that does this as a very successful. You should do that Versus, kind of like you know what interests you, like you know what's kind of in your world these days that you've read or you've seen that piques your interest and that's you know. In a way. You know I kind of joke around with my wife constantly, like after my conversation with my nephews I'm like they don't recognize how privileged they are. You know, like they have like the world is their oyster, Don't they know? Yeah, right, you know like they can go out and do whatever they want.
Speaker 1:That's how you know you're an adult like. Oh kids these days they don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they don't know. Back in my days I try not to be prescriptive or try to tell them, but more try to you know, probe and question, you know, like their thought process, you know, and then if they are interested then you know kind of guide them in that direction.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so going from the army to business school seems like a very unnatural route. What happened in the army that you're like? You know what I need to now go to business school.
Speaker 2:I think in life we always come to crossroads right At a certain pathway. You know, we walk down a certain pathway and we get to a crossroad where we have to make a decision if we're gonna keep going down this pathway or we wanna kind of take a detour. So I think, like when I graduated college, that's what I wanted to do, like I wanted to serve in the army. I, you know, saw movies growing up so I was like that sounds exciting, like I wanna be an officer, like. And I got to do all of that. But I think I got to a point in my mid to late twenties where, you know, I saw senior leaders who were 10, 15 years down the line. And then I had to ask the question to myself I feel like, is that where I wanna be 10, 15 years from now? And then I wasn't as excited.
Speaker 2:I think I was excited when I was in college that I could see myself as a 27 year old or 25 year old in the army. But as a 37 year old I was like, ah, I wanna try something different. I could see exactly where I wanted to be. So, yeah, I think that was the question that I asked. And then, as I went through that process, I decided that you know the business world I think was something that I wanted to try out and see.
Speaker 2:You know, one of the kind of the criteria or I guess the frameworks that I always use to kind of make my decision, has always been if I could see exactly where I'm gonna be in this pathway 10 years from now. For some people I think that could be comforting. For me, that scares me and then I think pushes me away because I was like you know, life is about, you know, learning new things and experiencing new things that I have no idea that exists. So when I was in the army, I think the idea that 10 years from now I could see exactly which desk I'm gonna be sitting in or where I'm gonna be and what rank, and for me that was like okay, like I wanna try something different where it's like completely unknown, that will challenge me.
Speaker 2:And yeah, after business school I was a. I worked in corporate finance. I was a finance director. That was my last job. I did that for about 10 years and that was kind of the similar framework that I used. After about 10 years of that, I saw I got to a point where I was like, if I keep going down this pathway, 10 years from now, I could see exactly where in the boardroom I'll be sitting, like I see our CFO, I see where I'm sitting, I'm just moving over three seats and I'm just right now I'm the one making the slides and passing it over. I'm just gonna be the one receiving the slides and reviewing it with the board members. And I was like, okay, like I wanna try something different. And that's what kind of led me towards a pathway of creating a YouTube channel today.
Speaker 1:Wow. So it's interesting because you made what it sounds like is in the army. You saw your future and you're like this is not what I want.
Speaker 2:I don't know what it is that I want but I know it's not that and you just pivoted. Yes.
Speaker 1:And then when you pivoted to business school, did you then was then when you started like having maybe an idea of where you wanted to go, which is why you went into finance.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think in business school is, you know, a lot of people go to business school cause they don't know what they wanna do. They wanna kind of explore different classes, different companies, different functional areas. So coming out of the military, like I had no idea what different functional areas were within the business world, like I didn't know what marketing was, I didn't know what, you know what accounting was, all of those things. So those were the things that I learned in business school and then I think it just kind of led me a pathway to working in corporate finance.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that was exciting. I mean, was that intimidating? Was that intimidating or scary to make that large of a pivot?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, I think so. I mean this was 15 years, you know, like almost 15 years ago. So once again, I think it kind of goes with the naiveness, Like you know it's. You know, we think back now. We're like if we knew what we knew back then, you know, we probably not, you know only the young in the military. We had this saying it's like only the young, or solution of to be heroes, right, we just, we just run, you know, without thinking. So I think that's what I was doing at the time. But then at the same time I think, yeah, I mean, I think excitement also comes from the unknown. I think.
Speaker 2:I talked to my wife about this a lot of how. Like thrill and excitement pretty much is the same thing as like fear and trepidation. It's just different side of the same coin. So then you know, when we're trying out something new, if it doesn't scare us, it's a is it worth pursuing. It should, in a way, scare us and terrify us, cause then that we know it's like okay, like that's something that I I I don't know I'm capable of or can I even do it. That itself is thrilling, scary and exciting at the same time.
Speaker 1:Wow, okay. So when I'm thinking about that, though, like how do you like, how do you know what's maybe somewhat in reason?
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Like how do you, how do you add that into the equation?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think it's hard right, Because it's a how to incorporate a level of pragmatism into our decision making. Yeah, I think it's a. It's a continual balancing act. I think of like, if we can, yeah, like we can say I want to climb Mount Everest. That scares me. But if we aren't understanding, kind of like, where we're at our skill set, then we're just dreaming.
Speaker 2:Right, so I think we have to kind, we have to constantly, I think, process and reflect to say, okay, like you know, a lot of times you might have probably heard of it, like you know, that concept of flow where people feel like they're immersed in something and then they feel, you know, they don't know time passing by is because you're right at the edge of like it's not too easy, but it's also like, not so hard as demoralizing, but it's at that right edge of like it's stretching you like 20% more than what you're more comfortable with, but then not so much where you're like I can't do this, and it's not so easy where you're like ah, this is not exciting enough. So I think it's. It takes a lot of just reflecting on kind of like what about ourselves? About what that goal is. So like when I was transitioning from the military into the corporate world yeah.
Speaker 2:I knew it was going to be a stretch, but at the same time I seen other people do it. I had a lot of colleagues that were making the same transition, that was going to business school or other people who went through that process. I knew it was possible. So I think that's what kind of kept me motivated. But at the same time it was scary. I mean, I think most recently like probably transitioned from my nine to five corporate job into becoming a middle-aged YouTuber. I think that was kind of like what the heck am I doing?
Speaker 2:But at the same time I saw I know, I know, I think I had a midlife crisis. This is yeah, I definitely had a midlife crisis. I walked. I walked out of my day job when I was 39 years old and then decided to become a YouTuber, and then my boss. She could not understand for the life of. I didn't explain to her what I was doing. I was just saying I'm going to go coach my son soccer team and then just need some time off. But well.
Speaker 1:That's interesting, though, that you're making these. So when you made that pivot from military to corporate, were you also married with children as well?
Speaker 2:No. So I was single at the time. So I think that was the other factor too was I think I saw what I wanted was to have a family eventually. And then I think I saw a lot of my other senior leaders who were, you know, 10 years down the line from me. And then the military life is you're constantly on the move all the time. I think in my six years I moved like eight times and then you're you don't know if it's when that's going to happen. So I saw that happening. So I think that's what was one of the one of the drivers to say I don't know if one of the ones I have a like I'm totally fine when I'm single, but once I have a family and kids, I don't know if I want to be away from them for six months at a time. So that's what kind of was true of me. I had a big picture of, like, the lifestyle I wanted, and then this didn't really fit in with that lifestyle. So that's what drove me towards making that decision to change.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So then, pivoting from corporate now to YouTube, how did you make that decision? Like, bring us back to that time when you're like I don't know if I want to say at this job to, oh, maybe I should do YouTube, but I also have a family to take care of. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So there's a, there's a lot of element there. I think kind of the two biggest ones were like one is financial, like how to make this work financially, and two was kind of like what I personally wanted from a fulfilling career and a lifestyle. So I think I got to a point as I was kind of alluding to earlier, like after 10 years I was a finance director and then you know, like you kind of map out exactly what my next pathway was. I was going to move into the next step in my pathway and then eventually end up as like a CFO, and then you know that's, you know, get my gold watch. And then, like I saw exactly like my pathway and then I think that's what's good and that wasn't alluring.
Speaker 1:Because that's alluring for that wasn't alluring to you, because I feel like that's alluring for a lot of people to reach the C-suite. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:And I think that's what I saw myself. I think I, if I, if you ask me, like in my, you know, 10 years, five years prior to that, I think that's what I wanted, that's the reason why I chose that pathway. But then, you know, we all change and I think I got to a crossroad where I was spending a lot of time away from the family.
Speaker 2:My work was, my life was revolved. It revolved around work. So you know, work fills in your calendar and then everything else fits in around it. And then, as my kids were getting older, I, my priorities I guess in a way changed from like, hey, I want that C-suite to the flexibility and the freedom I think was deep down inside, if I was being honest with myself, I think was what was my main kind of like priority. So then I think that I came to like, in my late 30s I, after about 10 years of doing this, I came to that term. I'm like, what is it that I want? And then I think to your question, to your point earlier, I realized that C-suite wasn't what I wanted 10 years from now.
Speaker 2:And then I had to kind of come to a decision is like okay, like if that's not what I want, like what is it that I want? And then I had this vague idea of like oh, I heard about entrepreneurs, you know like this seems to be doing cool stuff. They're like taking pictures there, they're in France, you know like posting Instagram pictures and YouTube actually wasn't like kind of like my initial plan. It just kind of, you know, after, after kind of thinking about actually, after I left my job, that's where it kind of landed at.
Speaker 1:But I think if I can ask you, though, like where do you think you're like? You have such a it seems like a strong self, sense of self and maybe some level of disregard for maybe peer pressure, because I imagine someone in your situation. That's a big thing to give up, which is, you know, your title your prestige like oh yeah, hey, I'm Tay, I'm the finance director. You know it's it that is real.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, I work at this company and you know I, like, I'm yeah, I'm just curious to know for you if you've ever even thought about this. Like, where do you feel like you have that kind of level of I want to say it is bravery and also just like sticking to what's true for yourself, opposed to other people around the? World I also know in the Korean community. That's a much, that's a huge pressure to.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, definitely, definitely. No, that's a really good question. I think it's not a. It was a process that I think both my wife and I kind of had to go through regarding not following a template. So, you know, you know up, when we're first starting out in a career or a lot of life in general, like we, I feel like don't know enough, or I myself didn't know enough to know what my, what I wanted, what my template was you're following, we're always following someone else's template. Hey, like you know, I see somebody who had this job and then this is this is how they're living their life. I want to follow that template. And then I think, to your point, we come to a point where now we're saying, okay, what is that I want? Is this template that I tried it, is it what I like? And then, having that, it's okay to say I actually don't like this template. I want to create my own template, I want to kind of create my own pathway and to give myself the permission to say that's okay.
Speaker 2:And then I think it required a lot of this kind of letting go of social expectations, understanding relationships, maybe with friends that were following that template, or a lot of times those relationships just doesn't work out or phases out because now you're, you're pursuing a different pathway.
Speaker 2:So then I think, like we went through that a lot with like both. I think our financial decisions I think that was one of the biggest ones was like when I graduated college and then even in my corporate world, I'm trying to follow that template of success American success you get this car, you know. You get the house, you know. You go on these fancy vacations, don't think about how it's going to be paid for. You just got to have that image Like that was what I was aspiring towards and I thought that was the symbol of success, because I didn't know what under the hood looked like. And then when my wife and I got married, we had $105,000 student debt, so from my business school and then my wife from nursing school, and then we went, you know, and then that's when we started to do some soul searching and we're like I don't think this is success, I think this is just like you know, like I don't feel successful, I feel like we're, you know, poor.
Speaker 2:And then we went through like personal finance seminars, like with Dave Ramsey and all of that, and we realized, oh, we are like making wrong financial decisions. So then we went to the other extreme of saying, you know what, forget what our friends are doing, forget what everyone else is doing, like we're going to go super frugal. So then, like we're not going to upgrade cars, we're going to go live in this tiny like apartment and then we're going to like pack our lunch, we're not going to upgrade anything. And then that kind of I think that was one of the friction points was like, hey, our friends are going to you know they're buying a Jaguar. And then they're saying, oh, I got a great deal. And I'm like buying a Jaguar is not a great deal, like doesn't matter how much a great deal you got on it.
Speaker 2:So for me, like for us I think that was it took us years of going through that and then we paid off our student debt in three and a half years and I think that was one of our kind of to your point of saying going against the mainstream in the Korean community or the Korean American community. I think that was kind of our most like powerful, I think, like I guess process of you know it was over. It wasn't overnight, it was like it took a decade and a you know to say like we're okay with making this decision, like I'm okay, like not buying the brand new car and I'm okay. Like you know, there's just like little tiny stigmas of, like you know, when you go to a place and then rich people don't ask how much things are right, like someone says, like oh, would you like this, you know, would you like this?
Speaker 2:you know perfume, and then rich people just buy it. That's what I thought no it's like. And I realized later no, rich people actually ask the price, they want to know exactly how much it is, and they're like is there, is there a deal that you have, you don't, and they're totally fine walking away. So I think building that muscle of being okay, being known as being frugal, like that.
Speaker 2:I think, was really like life changing and then I think that helped to, in a way, I think, with all the career choices, being okay, not following that pathway and be like you know what it's fine, like you know I don't need to have a certain title and then finding satisfaction in our own self and what our priorities were. And for ourselves it was, you know, recognizing we wanted to spend more time with each other, more freedom, more time with the family, more those kind of things, and I think that's what drove us. But again, it took years in making, I think, to I think to kind of let go of the conditioning that was in my mind, the templates that I thought I had to follow, and then being saying it's okay to not follow that and being okay with that.
Speaker 1:What's on the other side of that? Because I think most people want what you're saying before, which is well, but I do want the nice car and I do want to go on the nice vacation. Like is that? Like do you not do that anymore on this side of things, or what does that look like now?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think now it's about recognizing our priorities, like our priorities versus what I think, what we think should be our priority, based upon what we see around us. So then, you know people, you know we're social beings, so I think it's natural to recognize that. You know we have to have a relationship, we have to have a community. You know like it's communities important to listen to other people. However, just because someone says like, oh, you know, you need to go to this hotel, you need to go on this vacation, that doesn't mean like, I really need to go. That's information.
Speaker 2:But we have to make the decision on saying what is a priority for us and then is that worth investment? So I think what my wife and I constantly tell ourselves is like you know, it's not like we don't spend, it's not like you know, frugal doesn't mean like you don't spend. It's about, I think, identifying your priorities and saying we're going to spend money on this. We, you know, we just went to, we took the kids to like Puerto Vallarta for a whole week during summer break and that was a worth investment.
Speaker 2:But in order to do that, what are we ruthlessly cutting back on Things that we don't care about? Like we don't care about what car we drive. So like, and it's totally fine, you know us driving a 10 year old car because we that enables us to invest and focus on the things that we want to spend money on. But, to your point, it requires a lot of, I think, and we're still going through it a lot, because, you know, we're constantly questioning ourselves like like, oh, I want that, I want that, you know, I want that new jacket. It's like why? And then we have to kind of think ourselves is like is that what I want, or is it like what my sister told me, or is it like what I saw in the ad, you know?
Speaker 2:and then we have to, you know kind of like reflect on it and be like okay, or. And then it could be like I really want that jacket, and then being able to say like I'm going to invest in it and I want to get that, yeah, and that's okay.
Speaker 1:You know, I think what I hear you saying a lot of it is having a level of self-awareness with yourself about what is important to you, and I think this is where I do struggle a little not a little bit, but it'll probably a lot with trying to sort my thoughts out with this, which is, you know, we started off this. Call me telling you I have a side business, you know, and I hope I have more side business in that and make more than what I'm making in my corporate job, and sometimes I do think I'm like, okay, well, in a lot of ways I'm doing fine, I could put a roof over my head, I don't have any debt and I can go eat in a nice restaurant on occasion, yeah, it's pretty good.
Speaker 1:And then, at the same time, I feel like I am still trying to build more and build personal wealth and, you know, I'm sure, just like you, in some ways you might be working more than you probably were working before in your corporate job, because this is kind of sending a new trajectory for yourself, right, right.
Speaker 1:I guess like, and again, I think what? What I think is, you know, I think that's a good thing. I think what compelled me to reach out to you was because, in your conversation on the bigger pockets podcast, you brought up this idea of enough. And I think the idea of what's like enough and personal finance. I don't know how to marry those things together, because you can always make more money Right Right, right yeah.
Speaker 1:So I guess, like even in your own pursuit and maybe you know, maybe you can speak directly to me like how do we, how do you kind of like sort Well, I want to take this entrepreneurial path, I want to make X amount in revenue, I want this business to grow to this amount. This is what I want my family and my life to look like. How do you? I guess, yeah, how do you just like, marry those two things together?
Speaker 2:The way I like to look at it is like growth is important but, at the same time, like we have to constantly check to make sure we're not tying our in a way like happiness or ultimate satisfaction in that growth, and like reaching a certain goal within that growth. So I think for me, like when it comes to like, you know, the YouTube channel, or even in my previous career, like growing was always present and I think it's very important. But I think, also constantly reflecting with ourselves saying, okay, like, am I also a counterbalance now with like am I thankful for where I am today? Am I finding satisfaction in the things that I have achieved? And celebrating the progress, and then, I think, giving ourselves room to that.
Speaker 2:So I think it's a all of these you know there's no like this is the answer. It's always a process and a, you know it's a process of, I think, spending time with ourselves to reflect on why we're feeling in a, why we're feeling a certain way, and, I think, recognizing what's driving those feelings and then giving ourselves room to, I think, just pentificate about like those feelings because we're all so different. So, yeah, I mean, I think for me, like I have, you know, big, audacious goals with the YouTube channel, like I want to like continue to grow. I want to grow the revenue. I want to have a bigger impact At the same time. If I try to counterbalance that with not tying my self worth and identity and satisfaction and joy into into that, but rather constantly having to tell myself every day of like, oh look, how far I've come compared to last year. So I think that gives me a sense of satisfaction in the fact that I have more control.
Speaker 1:I think also that's a good point, like you have control over your time where you know at work. It's like can I get a day off and I get that approved, you know on the other side of that, too. Is that you what sounds like? Maybe, perhaps you're more energized. You know, and I think sometimes where? I think what happens a lot in corporate America. I used to work at this tech company and man people would go like hammer the cold brew all day and I'm just like cold brew.
Speaker 1:This is is intense, you know, but people, I think we're just trying to make it through the day.
Speaker 2:And what?
Speaker 1:I think happens with a lot of people is that we kind of fall asleep to ourselves. And where we think I just need like a day off, I just need to rest. It's like, yeah, you're, perhaps your job or whatever else in your life is draining you from your energy. You just might need something that actually is energizing not that you need to sleep I mean maybe that too but something that's adds energy, so sounds like similar to. Maybe what you're doing right now is just more energizing, perhaps, than your job before.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that changes with time, right, I think it's very important to be cognizant of that, to be aware of that, like I mentioned, like, if you ask me five, like you know, in my mid 30s, before I transitioned, like what drove me was actually that corner office. At that time in my life, my kids were super young and then you know, when they're babies they're not interacting with you.
Speaker 2:So you're just you know, you're just there, but at the time. But then I think with time it changed, and I think that was the key was to give myself the room to reflect on it and then be like, why am I not feeling energized anymore? And then, because my values have changed, my life has changed, things have changed and that's okay, and I think we have to be sensitive to that, we have to be aware of that and then be willing to make hard decisions.
Speaker 1:Did you ever feel like giving that up, giving up the goal of the corner office? Did you ever feel like that you were giving up because you gave that up? You did.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, like I think it was like and it was it probably I probably noodled on it for like a couple years like saying like I feel like if I jump off of this treadmill right now, what if I want to go back on it again later? And then so I think that took me a long time to just kind of process myself Like I would like. Literally I think I was doing circles in the back, in the backyard, like whenever I had a break between meetings, thinking about, like you know, after each meeting I was feeling like I feel like I'm just kind of spinning my wheels, I see where it's going, but at the same time it's just not I don't you know, your feelings tell you kind of give you that first warning before you can digest and understand it.
Speaker 1:You know, I really appreciate the fact that you said that you noodled over it for a couple years, because I think when you're in a place like that of like you know you're just dreading work, which then seeps into so many other areas of your life that you know, you feel like you feel very depressed in a lot of ways, you know, and then I think what eventually it sounds like you came to, was oh, but this sounds exciting, but for a long time you don't have that feeling of like, well, this is depressing, but I want to do that Like.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of people don't have that other. Well, this could be exciting and just taking the time.
Speaker 1:I think is, you know, reassuring to hear that it will take some time to just figure out your feelings and then perhaps finding a vision or something that's intriguing to someone you know to change their, their pathways. I mean, how much of like your, your background, growing up in a household where there was multiple bankruptcies, I mean with your parents who were, you know, small business owners. You know, essentially, this is kind of the pivot you're making, did that not terrify? You Were your parents not like whoa whoa.
Speaker 2:I actually didn't tell them, yeah, what I was doing, yeah, cause, just cause I know what they would say. But yeah, I mean, I think all of that was definitely back in my mind, probably the reason why I spent close to 20 years working for someone working in a nine to five, because I was afraid of that leap. I didn't have that level of confidence to, I guess, believe in myself. So, you know, I wasn't just kind of like, yeah, like we're going to have this vision, I'm going to make this work. It was very like pragmatic. It was very like I had like a lot of insurance backup plans and be like, uh, you know, okay, if it doesn't work out, I'll just go to plan B, if it doesn't work out, go to plan C and that's fine.
Speaker 1:I still appreciate you saying that, because I feel like the rhetoric you hear a lot on social media or media in general about these types of stories or entrepreneurs. It's like I'm going to make it work no matter what and let me just go after it. And it's just like this, like really unshakable confidence.
Speaker 1:But I think most people are kind of like that, like I don't know if I can do this, we'll see how it goes, Right, yeah, because there's so much that's out of your control, right Like the market, the industry, like you know how things are going to shake out.
Speaker 2:There's so much that's out of your control. So this is where, like you know my passion for personal finance, all of that really comes from is like, if you can, if you can get your financial house in, household, in order in a very conservative way, like it's not, none of it is exciting. Like saving money is not exciting. You're living below your means is not exciting you know, but that's what enables you to, I think, take risks in life, and then gives you that confidence.
Speaker 1:What is having your house in financial order look like? So one's like, okay, I want to do that. How do I? What is that?
Speaker 2:You know the name of a channel that is financial tortoise. So I talk a lot about, just, you know, like frugality, like nobody wants to hear that because they're like, oh, you know, that's not success, you know. So there's actually a lot of writings that are based around how, like people who build sustainable wealth. And then, you know, when we think about wealthy, a lot of people kind of go straight to like Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos. They're not reflective of regular rich people, like people who are, you know just, if you think about like, like majority of people who are financially stable, who might be, you know, millionaires or decimillionaires, they're the cornerstone of their wealth building was actually like frugality, all the boring stuff of like living below their means, looking at their finances, doing a budget, keeping track of their finances, paying down their debt, investing in very boring investments not, you know, getting stucked up into these sexy investments, not trying to do stock picks, but then investing in very boring broad market index funds.
Speaker 2:And then people are like, oh, then you know, the market's gone up this year and this way it doesn't matter. You're investing for 10 years, like, do not look at the market, your job is just invest and hold it as long as possible. So then, this is why it's like slow and steady, like how do you get rich in 10 years? Yeah, or 20 years, like nobody wants to hear that, like I only get rich tomorrow, you know, but that's yeah in a way, like in a nutshell, yeah, like getting your financial house in order is just making sure that you know true wealth is really like, if you lost your job tomorrow, how long can you last without needing to go look for a job?
Speaker 2:Like if you can do that. You know the general rule of thumb is like if you have invested and saved 25 times your income or your expenses, you're in a way financially independent. If you're anywhere you know below that, that's still fine. Like if you have 10 times of your expenses stayed and invested, essentially you have 10 years that you can go without income and you're still fine. That's like kind of true wealth. I think you're not living paycheck to paycheck because you're over leveraged or you don't have anything invested and saved.
Speaker 2:So I think that that's the kind of key message that I share on the channel. And then the key philosophy that I said actually helped my wife and I the last 10 years. The journey that we went to was paying off all of our student debt, living on a budget. We actually did this like cash envelope for a little while. Cash envelope system where we would pull out money from the bank, put, like you know, $500 into an envelopes, as this is grocery, and then like, literally, that's what.
Speaker 2:And then the funny thing is, when you do that like you spend that all in the first two weeks of the month and you're like, oh darn, we weren't very good at budgeting before, but this forces us because we have no money. We have like $12 here. So then you learn to live off those. Like, oh, what else is home today? So those are things that really, I think, forced us to develop those habits and discipline about stuff that we didn't look at before. We just like, oh, I think we have enough, and then we would just swap it, swipe, a credit card.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of people who might be hearing this is like well, how do I even save an extra 500 a month? How do I even save an extra thousand a month? Like how do you advise people maybe in that situation?
Speaker 2:It's not. There's no easy answer. I think it's very situational, dependent, based on income and the life choices that we've made. So for my wife and I, we talk a lot about how, like, there's time to sew and there's time to reap.
Speaker 2:And then I think, when we were knee deep in our careers, like I so I live in Orange County but then both of us worked in LA, so like we would commute to work, like and she was in there, she was in there at the time, so she would have to get to. You know, like we would leave the house at like 530 and we wouldn't get home until like eight o'clock at night. And then we did this for like almost 10 years. And then that's when you know, like we knew our biggest asset at the time was our income, our career capital we built up at the time, so then we didn't want to put the foot off the pedal. This income is what enables us to save as much as possible, and making that sacrifice, I think, enabled us to like allow us to make some decisions later on.
Speaker 2:But there's no silver bullet answer to this question. I think it's very unique to each individual. But then for us, I think we knew at the time we weren't being able to relax at home like we want to, but at the same time, like that was the time where we were like we got to put the foot on the pedal and then try to work as much as possible so we could save as much as possible and then invest as much as possible, and then later on we will have more flexibility to be able to make decisions. But it's hard right, like it's in a way like we couldn't have it all.
Speaker 1:You know. I'm curious to know what was your vision for pursuing a project, a personal finance YouTube channel, because one can say we have enough personal finance. You know folks out there. But what was your vision behind it and what compelled you to start that?
Speaker 2:So before I was writing on a website and then I realized from a competitive perspective, I felt like there was less people willing to put their face on a camera than write. So I was like, okay, this seems like it's not. I could be a little bit more competitive here. And I think the other part is like I saw a lot of people on personal finance YouTube channel but I didn't see a lot of people that were like me middle-aged Asian male whose parents are living with him, immigrant, you know. So I think that's what I guess, in a way like the voice I wanted to convey and also the philosophy regarding like getting rich quickly to kind of counter that. And then I think the other part too is a lot of the messaging from the financial industry that we have to be very careful, we have to increase our financial literacy. A lot of the financial marketing isn't really there for our benefit. They're for the benefit of the financial industry.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I think the only way to combat that because you talk to any financial advisor or insurance broker, there is an incentive to why they're talking to you they're trying to sell you something. So then the only way we can and it's not to say like they're bad people or like you know, we don't need that financial product but only way to make sure that we're in control of our finances is to educate ourselves. So I think that was the other part that motivated me.
Speaker 1:I'm curious to know, like you know for the folks who do tune into your YouTube channel or people who do follow you, what is your ideal, like goal or dream you have for them, Like, oh, if my people who ever listened to me this is what I want for them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think at the day be more financial literate but at the same time, like have more control over their finances and recognize that you have a lot more control than you think.
Speaker 1:Well, how do you speak to? You know where I think people feel like the economy is not, there's inflation, like I don't make enough and now houses are I can't buy a house Like everything does feel more expensive and everything is more expensive. So how do you, kind of like, speak to that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think it comes to the whole idea of the locus of control, right? Like you know, we have things that are outside of our control and then there are things that are within our control. It's easier to focus on the things that are outside of our control, because then we have something to point and blame for the reason why we can't do something right. It's like, hey, like, why can't I? You know, why don't I have a six pack? Well, it's because of fast food, it's because I'm so busy, it's because of XYZ, you know. And the day, like, the reason I don't have a six pack is because I'm not working out, I'm not managing what I eat.
Speaker 2:Circumstances of life will always happen. Things will always be challenging. There's always going to be pressures, and I think with financially like, yeah, the economy, we have no idea what's going to do tomorrow. Inflation, yes, it's going to go up, it's going to go down. Interest rate it's going to go up, it's going to go down. We have no idea when it's going to happen.
Speaker 2:Our work we can't control our salary as much as we'd like to. However, what do we have control over? We have control over if I choose to eat out today or make lunch at home, I have control over how much I'm going to spend on this. I have control over how hard I'm going to work today. Or my salary negotiation with my boss, or if I try to upscale my, you know, level up my skill set so I can, you know, try to be more competitive in the marketplace. Like those are things that we have control over. So I think that's the key is like there's a lot more let's, you know, let's be positive, there's a lot more that's within our control than that's not within our control. If we focus on what things that are outside of our control, then we will all, we will not make any progress. But if you want to make progress, be optimistic. Glasses have full. You have control over your life and your finances a lot more than you think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if I can ask you a question for myself while I have a financial route with me. So I feel like for me, the place I'm in, and hopefully no one from my job was listening to this podcast, but you know I I have similar aspirations to you, which is one day I do hope I can leave my corporate job and kind of run my own business and hopefully there's more businesses. But it's just more of like the you know the adventure of life, trying different things and all that right.
Speaker 1:I don't have my goal to climb this corporate ladder is no longer there. So right now, my current circumstances I am debt free. I live with my parents, so I don't have, you know, any rent right now. That's about to change, but that's okay. But so I have a decent, uh, salary. It's not, it's not amazing, it's fine, it's fine.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I am saving as much as I possibly can.
Speaker 2:I'm probably saving more than 50% of my income right now, right, and so I'm like, okay, that lever is pulled.
Speaker 1:Now I'm like I've come to the realization and correct me if I'm wrong I need to pull this other lever, which is now to increase my income. How do I do that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean it's hard, right, that's uh, again, there's no silver bullet for it.
Speaker 2:I mean, like I can, I can kind of talk to you from, like my personal experience of like, yeah, like my wife and I we both had really good careers and, um, but I think when we were kind of like thinking about where do we want to be 10 years from now, like freedom was one of them, but at the same time, if we're honest, we wanted more financially.
Speaker 2:We're like I see exactly where this pathway is going and I see where our income is going to cap out at. And then we've done everything that we can to your point, like we were saving at the time probably at 50% of our income. And then, but we saw, like you know, the good thing was we had our expense habits dialed in, uh, because we had to pay another debt and that took us a little while to just kind of like be cognizant of our expenses. So that was good. But at the same time to that your exact, to your question we're like, okay, like we, I see exactly where my income is going to cap at, when my wife's income is going to cap that, but we want, you know, 10 years from now. Could you know kind of vision out like where we want to be? We want way more than that, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I also live in New York city. So I'm like, okay, I got to wait, wait more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So then I think that's what kind of drove us to be like okay, in order to have her, in order to make a pivot, we got to take three steps back in order to move five steps forward. So that's where I think our plan of like saving up two years of expenses and then saying, okay, let me try, giving this for me, like this entrepreneurship a try. And then for the first couple of years I knew we weren't going to make any money at all, like you know. So then that was. But the thing was that was okay, that was part of the process.
Speaker 2:And then for me, like I was reading books at the time, like the long game and like the infinite game, you know, by Simon's saying like it's okay, I got to like keep, keep on, you know, keep at it. But I think the way we approached it wasn't like my income's increasing and I'm going to try to add one more to it and try to increase the income. It was more like I need space to work on the business. So I just went completely cool, turkey, and then took three steps back. But then now I can say I'm on the pathway towards being like five steps forward, but because I took a different route because this is kind of like you know, when we're thinking about like a pathway if I keep staying on this, but I want to get to that mountain.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:We got to go detour, we got to go back by you know several pathways and that's uncomfortable, but then that's, that's the, that's the sacrifice that most people are willing to take in order for us to take a detour and be like okay, I see it now, like is this going to work? And part of it is also trying it out because we don't know if it's going to work or not, because I think it was just kind of a vague like a vision of like I think that could work. And then so like I'll give you, even with my wife, like she, she was a registered nurse for 12 years and she like made good income. She became a nurse practitioner. And then, however, we also know like she had a cap in her financial, like, okay, this is it. And then she was like so we had this whole like dream visioning. Be like okay, if you wave a magic wand in 10 years from now. Like what would you want to be?
Speaker 2:And then for her, she, when she was in college, she never thought she was smart enough to be a doctor. So then she said, like maybe I want to try going to medical school. So she actually left her day job as a nurse. This was two years ago. And then right now she's actually studying for the MCAT because she's just finished her post-bacc at the age of 30. She started at 37. Yeah, wow, at the age of 39. And it is like, you know, it's that growth part, but the other part of it is like, if we're blunt about it, it's the financial part too. Right, like down the line, right 100%.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so then. But, however, all of we were constantly telling ourselves, if we want to climb five steps forward, we got to take this three steps back and we have to be okay with that uncomfortableness, that uncertainty that you know people are going to tell us, hey, what are you doing? Because we don't really talk to people in real life about this on the internet.
Speaker 1:I love this conversation. This was great. Thank you so much. I you know I love that you don't have any like. Every time I try to ask you a question, you're like, well, it depends, and but I think that adds to your validity more than someone who's like, well, this is what you do X, y and Z and this you know, and I think, yeah, I just really appreciate this conversation and you know you just with with podcasting and meeting new people, you just never know what to expect. But you know, I really enjoyed talking to you. It's pretty easy talking to you as well. So, thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Thank you, yeah, yeah, it was a pleasure being here. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening. Special thanks to my editor, christian Brown, for his incredible talent in leveling up this podcast and all things audio and editing. Remember there's no one way or one size fits all, so go for it. Join us next week as we continue to explore the stories of people making way.