Today, we venture on a thought-provoking journey with Haejin Shim-Fujimara, an esteemed attorney and founder of multiple non-profit organizations such as Academy Kintsugi and Embers International. This episode covers her incredible experiences of finding God in the midst of crisis, and how her faith has brought joy, freedom, and purpose into her life.
In this thought provoking episode we unpack the connection between justice and beauty. Haejin shares the story of when she felt a divine calling to fight for justice.
Join us as Haejin enlightens us about the joy and honor of seeking justice, the importance of healing, and her coping strategies for the demanding nature of her work. This episode will leave you inspired by Haejin's story of love amidst the darkness, her insights on being an outsider, and the value of joy and play in the midst of hard work. Join us in our conversation that promises to be as enlightening as it is compelling.
👉 All things Haejin...
Thank you for listening!
Do you know someone or have a topic you would like featured on the podcast? Leave a review and let me know! I'd love to hear from you!
Today, we venture on a thought-provoking journey with Haejin Shim-Fujimara, an esteemed attorney and founder of multiple non-profit organizations such as Academy Kintsugi and Embers International. This episode covers her incredible experiences of finding God in the midst of crisis, and how her faith has brought joy, freedom, and purpose into her life.
In this thought provoking episode we unpack the connection between justice and beauty. Haejin shares the story of when she felt a divine calling to fight for justice.
Join us as Haejin enlightens us about the joy and honor of seeking justice, the importance of healing, and her coping strategies for the demanding nature of her work. This episode will leave you inspired by Haejin's story of love amidst the darkness, her insights on being an outsider, and the value of joy and play in the midst of hard work. Join us in our conversation that promises to be as enlightening as it is compelling.
👉 All things Haejin...
Thank you for listening!
Do you know someone or have a topic you would like featured on the podcast? Leave a review and let me know! I'd love to hear from you!
What is your calling in life? Today, we have the privilege of sitting down with Hejin Shim Fujimara, ceo and founder of multiple nonprofits such as Academy, kintsugi and Embers International. She is a powerhouse attorney who leads the beauty and justice movement. Hejin and I have a candid conversation about big life questions, the importance of asking impossible questions and how her faith gives her the power to keep moving forward. I'm your host, melissa Park. This is Making Way.
Speaker 2:Alrighty. Well, I am so, so, so excited to talk to you. I cannot wait. Ever since I met you at the office, I was like gosh. I got to know this woman's story. She is like so spunky, so much energy and, you know, just kind of doing a preliminary research of your background. I'm just like gosh you do so much. It's like where do you have the time and energy to do all that you do? But before we get into all that, I definitely want to start from the beginning, of where you're from, your background and then how you got to where you are today. So maybe you can share with us a little bit about where you're from.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having me, melissa. This is what an opportunity to share my story a little bit. So I was born and raised in South Korea and I grew up in a home where I was so well loved. I was the first child, first grandchild, from my mom's side, so I was very well loved. My mom had a very special calling to be just an amazing mother. So she just saw a lot of different kind of talents and potentials ever since I was really young. But she was really wise enough to let me just try whatever I wanted to try, without kind of telling me what to do or directing me to certain area of of profession or life. But yet my mom did her best to buy me a lot and lots of books.
Speaker 3:So we didn't have the kind of library system that we have today, we didn't have the kind of access to literature that we have today. We certainly did not have internet at the time. But more than anything and I remember she bought me these world classic like literature and I had a set of like 200 different books ever since I was really little. So I read like Moby Dick when I was I don't know when I just started reading and of course back then, you know I was reading Korean so it was translated a versions. But like I read, you know, jane Eyre, you know at the age of seven, so you know I just I was exposed to a lot of, I think, literature that gave me that kind of satisfied my curiosity, you know, expanding my imagination.
Speaker 2:Where did you think your mom had the foresight to introduce those types of novels to you?
Speaker 3:I don't, you know, I don't think my mom read much of any of those books. She just knew reading was important. And back then, because we didn't have we didn't have a lot of access to education besides public education that we were in but somehow she knew reading was really important. So, and because you know, back then it's not like we can travel a lot into a different world or you know, there are a lot of classes that I can try, I mean there were like art classes and music classes and things like that, but to explore kind of the world that is outside of what is your immediate surrounding or even your school, I guess my mom knew that reading will be like a way to do that.
Speaker 3:So I mean, back then it was a time of, you know, you will actually look at encyclopedia in a book form, right. So so I actually had all kind of encyclopedia at home as well. And I remember also like my mom bought me these very expensive art books. So I had art books for like Picasso, vengo, monet and like all these really important and well-known artists, but I knew them ever since I was like I don't know, I can barely like walk, because they were present around me.
Speaker 2:I guess like how did you decide what you wanted to study or major in when you were going to college?
Speaker 3:In college, I think I kind of had a rebellious period.
Speaker 2:Tell us about the rebellious period.
Speaker 3:I don't think I was rebellious in high school and I think it's also because I didn't, because I, you know, I had to figure out and navigate this new world and I was very in a way, I'm sure, scared, sure, and so I had to be kind of like mature and I didn't have the I guess I guess what I'm. I think I didn't have the opportunities to to rebel.
Speaker 2:Sure, or the safety and comfort of knowing what to rebel against. At that point, everything's new.
Speaker 3:Right, yeah, and so finally in college, I mean you got to have that rebellious period because you got to get the out of your system in a way so, but my rebellion, it was manifested in this way. So you know, I was still. I mean, I grew up as a Christian. I had that kind of privilege and and freedom to really explore my faith along with all my curiosity, and so my rebellion showed more. Like you know, I started to question academia.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so, you know I went to yeah, so I went to Barnard College at Columbia University in New York City and I'm at this just incredibly prestigious school and I have all these opportunities to really now go deep into all this curiosity that I had ever since I was young. So I tried and of course I went in as a math major. You know I had a like perfect score for SATs and, just being from Korea and all of that, I was able to really get those kind of scores and enter into this college. But my interest was not really math or science.
Speaker 3:My interest was more liberal arts and sociology and all along those lines. So I tried different kind of subject matters like psychology, sociology, anthropology, economics. And then during that time it felt like and although you know, now looking back it was kind of silly, but it felt like everything was more of a worth play because I was learning for the first time all kind of different theories and sociology and psychology and economics and all of those things. And then, as a, you know, 17, 18 year old young person, I felt like I can come up with a better theory, because because it just seemed so. And then this is also, of course, my rebellion, my pride and ignorance and all of that combined.
Speaker 3:So but I think I was doing something in me at the time because he really wanted me to think about. You know how I perceive academia and really knowledge. And then what I realized was I was looking for the truth in academia and I wanted to find something that is concrete and absolute. And I didn't really have the understanding of what it means to navigate this pluralistic world where there are different kind of knowledge and understanding and theories and perspectives, and kind of embrace all of that and then find beauty in that. But I was more of looking for something that something to guide me right, that is unchanging, that is absolute, that I can just trust and believe in.
Speaker 2:So did you want to find a thread through everything you are reading and learning about? Because what's interesting to me is that someone who's been a Christian their whole life, I would. My natural assumption is that once you go to college and you're exposed to, like you said, all these learnings and this, all the different ways of thinking and being, that instead of questioning academia, I would almost question my faith more. Be like, well, I grew up learning that you know, this is what the Bible says and this is how the world is, but then I just was exposed to all these other ideas and instead of questioning that, like you're questioning, I mean, I guess you're kind of questioning everything in a sense. But why, like, why were you looking for that truth, like what was missing? Yeah, I want to know more about that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a great question.
Speaker 3:I think, going into college I had a dream that I wanted to become a professor and because I was kind of like, oh, I want to, I want to find something that I can devote my life to, something that is so worthy and something that is so in a way not, I guess, absolute might not be the right description but something that is so worthy that I can study and and explore so deeply enough that I have this confidence to teach someone else about.
Speaker 3:So I was looking for that one thing that I wanted to teach someone else and that something if I'm going to be teaching someone else, I'm going to be responsible, right, I'm going to have. I want something that is credible and that I can give my life to. And what is that? One subject or area of knowledge or subject matter that I can actually spend all of these time learning. And in a way, I didn't find that. And of course, you know, if I go back to college now and I'm sure there's so many areas that I can find that, but right now I mean at back then I just felt like I could. There's not a one thing that I want to give my life to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, did you ever question your faith at that time, like, oh wait, is that is what I believe, true? Like as someone who's seeking the truth?
Speaker 3:don't you have to also put your own maybe presuppose faith kind of on the line of question and to yeah, so I think what I was doing is more like I had a very narrow understanding of academia or knowledge in this world, where I basically lived in a very dualistic world, because that's how I was taught in church and other places to write. So there is a this separation between your faith and Other outside of the church. So, you know, as a teenager I was in this kind of jam, well in a pickle, where I didn't know the direction of my life Because I couldn't find that kind of. You know, I found Jesus here, but I didn't. I didn't know how Jesus is at work outside of church, because one I never seen that actually and I mean because you know families is. You know, you just grew up with a family so you don't really see them working outside. I mean, as a young person I never experienced that. And you know what does it mean to be, for example, lawyer who's a follower of Christ? Like I didn't have an answer for that. You know what does it mean to be a professor who's a follower of Christ? Like I've never even seen that.
Speaker 3:So I was in that kind of conflict and that led to rebellion and kind of like I didn't, I didn't want to believe in academia, I didn't want to study and all of that. So you know, I think that looking back, I am really grateful for that time, because I had to go through that kind of struggle and what happened was right after college I found myself Because of that kind of rebellion. I didn't really prepare myself for a life outside of college, so I was without a job. And also on top of that was economic depression. During that time it was the late 90s, there's IMF, that's happening in Asia, and so all of those things were not very helpful with job search. So I was without a job, without purpose, without money, without, I mean, I couldn't just go back to Korea at that point, you know, because I wanted to gain some experience and then find out, you know, figure out what I want to do afterwards.
Speaker 3:So but during the time Jesus meant me personally. Up to this point, you know, I follow Jesus in a way that was taught, you know, from church, from Sunday school, from, of course you know, my family. So I was just following the kind of teaching that was given to me. But I never really experienced Jesus as my personal Lord and I didn't even know what that meant. And of course, you know, like I knew how to live as a Christian in a church setting, but I didn't know what that looked like outside of church.
Speaker 3:And when I met Jesus personally and understood what grace meant for the very first time this free gift of salvation to us, when there's nothing that we can contribute towards that, there's nothing that we can return to God for, that God still loved us, god still died for us. So when I understood what grace meant for the very first time personally, it was very natural for me to give my life to God and said God, here's my life, use it for your glory, and all I ever want is just to be with you. So wherever you lead me, I want to be with you. So I think before that experience I don't think I had that kind of faith Like my faith. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, I guess I, what is? What does that like? I guess it's in some ways, it's hard to like wrap my head around that because God is like it's not. It's like okay, I want to be with you. Well, what's that like? What's that experience of like being together and then wanting like you know, because so much of it is like, you know, if you fall in love, it's, it's, it's understandable, like, oh, I love this person and that love drives me to want to know more about this person and I just want to be in the same room. We don't need to, we don't need to talk to each other, but I just want to be near you, because that kind of like, we kind of can grasp that because there's more, because there's like a physical being and there's someone who I can see and know, get to know, but with, with an entity that is God, like, how do you have that type of experience? And, yeah, how do you have that type of experience with, with God?
Speaker 3:Um, oh gosh, I wish we can have like three nights and then we can just say, um, so, wow, how do I even begin? I think it's a very supernatural experience. Just falling in love with anything is a supernatural experience because love itself is supernatural, because for just fallen human beings, I think, for us who are broken and very selfish and self-centered, there's no way that we can love anything that is outside of us, right? Because a lot of times, I think what happens is that we love someone or we love something because we enter into transactional relationship where I gain something from them, right, but that's really not the kind of love that we're talking about here, right? The kind of supernatural love that is transcending love that we're talking about is we don't need anything Like I just want to give myself to you because I am in love with you, right, and I think when we say the words aren't inadequate to express my feeling for you, I don't think I ever really understood what that meant until I fell in love with God and really understood what love means.
Speaker 3:So I think the very first personal experience of falling in love with God is when I realized that I had this very personal crisis right after college where I experienced for the first time in my life and this is when I'm about 22, 23, as a very young person for the very first time, I experienced betrayal, being misunderstood, feeling abandoned and feeling completely out of control and there is nothing I can do about this situation. That was unfolding around me and I didn't do anything to contribute towards that, but these things were happening that I just had, I couldn't do anything about it and in that situation I just knelt before God. I think when you have a crisis I think you can have too there are many different responses, but at large, I think you can have either running towards God, asking for help, or running against God, being very angry at God because of what's happening. And I have to give a lot of credit and thanks to my family and my family at large, those generations of family where I've seen them going through really tough times and really running towards God for help. So I think that's kind of in my memory bank and I kind of mimicked what I understood, what I was supposed to be doing in that kind of my personal crisis and I just ran towards God. And I'm really grateful because even the very fact that I ran towards God for help is grace, because I could have chosen something very different. I could have chosen to just run away from God and be angry at Him, and that's not what happened.
Speaker 3:So, when I went to God for help and I just sat before Him and, of course, I had to go through this excruciating time of prayer and just weeping before God and trying to understand what's happening and just asking God for help, and then what I understood was when everyone seems to misunderstand me in the midst of this mess, god loves me and God accepts me as who I am, as I am in this situation.
Speaker 3:And he reminded me of, of course, the cross and what Jesus has done on the cross, how he died from me, when I have nothing that I can give it to Him. Because I think, until then, as a recent college grad, I think what was in my kind of head is that I wanted to do something for God, as if there is anything that I can do for God, right, I felt like there's something that I can contribute, right, that I can do, that God needs me, right, there is something that like a mission that God has given to me specifically that I get to accomplish in this world, and I think that was an idea of like, oh, like there's yeah, there's something that I can return to God. But when I experienced this personal crisis, I realized for the very first time that there's nothing I can do to contribute towards anything in this world. It's by God's pure grace that I can do what I can do, but essentially I'm a dust and God doesn't need me?
Speaker 2:Isn't that, in I don't know, at the same time kind of like depressing and unmotivating, because you're like I'm useless? I'm not that I'm useless, but it's just like what am I going to do, you know? Because I think what motivates a lot of people, and maybe we can distinguish as we continue to talk but like is this feeling of like you know I am needed, I am not the most needed and just it doesn't end with me, but like it still matters what I do. But this idea of like you know, god, if God is the ultimate being of this universe, doesn't need me, doesn't that kind of also like make you feel useless and then, like you know, ultimately depressed, like you were saying, like you know, I couldn't find your purpose.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, that's a great question and I think that's where love comes in. So I think when we have this kind of realization that, no, god doesn't need me, if we stop there, of course, like where do I go from here? We cannot go anywhere because I feel like I am meaningless, because I'm not needed. But if you realize that while you are in God's presence, understanding his love for you, you can be, and that's the moment that I think you understand what it means to be a child, child of God. And you start from there where you have this love relationship with your father, god, the father, and as a child, I mean there's nothing I can really do to help my, my, my dad, but my dad allows me in and in this love relationship what I can, what I do a little bit. My father loves it and he takes it and he takes it to a place of really blessing this world. He doesn't but I don't need to do that, but I get to do that and that in and of itself is so much joy and that relationship gives me the kind of meaning and purpose that I want to do more of that and in a way, I mean, I think you can look at it from.
Speaker 3:Oh, it can be depressing and maybe so, but at the same time it can be so freeing because it's not on, it's not up to me. So, for example, like you know, as you know, I'm a lawyer and some of my I mean really all of my cases are about my clients, either, you know, seeking new opportunities or their relationship is broken, so there is some mending that is required. But regardless what kind of case it is, it's really important to them and sometimes it's really a life or death kind of situation, or it's very, very serious and significant for my clients. So it can be really all consuming If I truly believe that it's up to me to resolve my client's case. Ultimately. I don't think, melissa, that I can get up from my bed every morning.
Speaker 2:You crumble under the pressure, I will not be able to get up from my bed.
Speaker 3:But I know that God, who is the creator and savior of this world, is also sovereign over everything and loves my client, whether they are Christians or not, it doesn't matter, because God created each one of them in this image, that God loves them more than I can ever imagine. So these cases are in his hands, but I am invited into this work to play a part. He can do it with his words. God can make these cases go away or resolve the problems and bring my client to a new season, just at the tip of his finger. He can just say it, but he invites me to co-create with him the benefit of my clients.
Speaker 3:That's why I can get up with joy and strength and take care of my clients in a way that I can right now, with so much joy and freedom. At the same time, I am called to do my best, and not because I made my commitment, and of course I did. It's not because my duty as a lawyer calls me to do it Of course it does. However, my motivation is so much more than that. I take care of my clients to the best of my abilities because I love them and I love God, and this is the love that motivates me to do all my work, and that's why I think more creativity, more inspiration comes out of that, because this is really a gratuitous action. This is about extravagance, not out of calling or obligation, but because of freedom that I have in a loving relationship.
Speaker 2:I'm just like taking a beat to take that in. Yeah, I could see that. I think it's so counter-cultural to American society, like kind of like what you were saying earlier, which is that it is very transactional. It's about how hard can you work to pull up your own bootstraps to make something of yourself, and that's kind of what I think a lot of Americans we pride ourselves on is that here is a country, for better or for worse, where you can create your own luck, as some people will say, and which is so different than, I guess, what you said, which is it's not about that, or it's not even in the pursuit of that. It's already happening, so come along for the ride. Almost.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a lot to take in for sure. I mean even to process that, and even someone for myself who I have a background, or, I guess, in Christianity or had that faith, it really is something that I need time to kind of take in of. Like. What does that really mean, though? But, as you said, you are a lawyer, so, during this period of time where you went from graduating college and kind of going through a moment of crisis and uncertainty about how, where, the meaning and purposes in your life. How did you then find your path towards becoming a lawyer?
Speaker 3:Right after college and now I had this very personal experience of meeting my Lord and Savior and gave my life to Him and said here it is, here's my life that you have given me and I'm giving it to you to make it meaningful, like I don't know what to do. So just guide me Right then, and God is so gracious to really show me as much as I could understand Right. So back then I can only understand so much of this world Right, and hopefully in 10, 20 years from now I can understand this world even more, and myself. So back then I was doing this fundraising campaign for World Vision and in the late 90s there was a lot of I mean, still we do but one of the top problems of the world was the issue of hunger, the problem of hunger, and especially in places like Africa. So there were a lot of children who are going hungry and dying from malnutrition and it's a kind of vicious cycle all over. So we are doing fundraising to raise funds for this work through World Vision and we did what is called 30 hour famine. No, 30 hour famine, yes, 30 hour famine. So I will fast for 30 hours and I will take the opportunity to introduce the problems that we have in the world and ask you to support, as I am. It's kind of doing like a bicathon and a marathon for charity. So, and World Vision sent us a video presentation to introduce this work and of course there were a lot of images of children going, you know, dying from hunger and malnutrition, and of course you know that problem is fairly well known. So we kind of expected to see these images and still very moving and of course that motivate people to be generous.
Speaker 3:But in the midst of that, those images, for some reason that year, there are images of children who are victims of civil war. And of course you know, when we hear about wars that's happening in the world, whether it's the conflict between countries or within a country in the form of a civil war, we understand that there are people who become victims of violence and we understand that a lot of times people will be killed and women will be violated and it's very tragic. But we know that those things do happen. And even as a young college graduate, I knew certain things certain violence will happen and there will be victims of violence, but what I didn't know, that there can be very young children who could be victims of violence at war, and these children were not child soldiers. I mean child soldiers. We also know that to be a problem, but what I saw was children whose limbs were cut off by violent forces during the war. So these are the images of children who had only one arm and one leg. Because during the civil war, the people with weapons will go into these villages in a country in Africa and specifically, and they will take men and women and they will kill them. But they will also take young children who are not resisting. They don't have weapons, they don't have power or strength to resist any of this, but they will just take them and then they will cut off their limbs so that they will grow up in fear, they will grow up handicapped and they will never even dream to resist them.
Speaker 3:And to me and I had no idea that was happening in the world and it was pure evil that I was looking at and I'm very visual. So when I looked at those images, that moment I remembered this still I had the experience of those images being imprinted in my heart and that was the moment that, for the first time in my life, someone else's problem became my problem. It wasn't a problem that I read about or saw and I empathized and I became generous towards it, and then I turned around and then was able to go on with my life and a lot of times we need to do that, otherwise we won't be able to live in this world. But that moment the images of those children became mine, so to speak, and I couldn't turn around and go on with my life. And I remember crying for a few days after that and I couldn't stop crying and I was exhausted, melissa. I thought I was going to pass out and die because I was crying too much.
Speaker 3:And what I realized at the moment is at that time is that how God's heart for this world is vast, like we can't even fathom how big his heart is. And he loves us all in a way that he has a heart for the immigrants, he has a heart for children who are suffering, he has a heart for single mothers, he has a heart for minorities, he has a heart for all of these people and he has a huge heart for you and me, and what God does is that he will share a tiny piece of his vast heart with each one of us, so my heart can be directed towards a certain group of people and, unbeknownst to me, I have such compassion and empathy towards certain people. He may have shared a heart for immigrant people in the country for you, melissa or to support someone else, a heart for artists, you know, a heart for elderly, and he shared his heart for people and especially vulnerable people group and children who are victims of violence. And so when I realized that's what God has done and thank God that he doesn't share his entire heart with us because we won't be able to bear it, but when their problem became my problem, I had to do something about it. So I had this about two weeks of a Q&A session with God. So I sat down and then I started with my first, because I had to understand the problem of violence and why and what can I do about it. Like I'm just one person of recent college graduate with no job and no purpose, really so, and I'm like God, why are you sharing that heart with me? So I sat before God and I had this two week Q&A session with him and basically asking from the very beginning why such violence, why such injustice, why this kind of people group and who's behind it? Why motivates them and, ultimately, what can I do about it?
Speaker 3:And so I think, because I'm called to be an advocate and a lawyer, what he has shown me through that process was that there is a certain rule of law that governs very every single country has this and then governs this world that protects very fundamental human rights and humanity really.
Speaker 3:So I mean, all these countries have a law that says do not kill, do not steal right, do not assault, do not cut off the limbs of the children, like all these laws are in place, except, and of course you know, not all laws are good or it's all very broken, but at least we have these laws in place that protects life and health and dignity. And these laws are not being enforced because of corruption, because of power struggle, because of greed and many other reasons. So when I realized that, oh, these laws are being abused and not enforced, I need to learn about how to use the power in a way, in the right way, that not harm people but protect people, that is, utilizing a way that I can advocate for those who cannot advocate for themselves. So at the end of that two week Q&A session, it was very clear to me oh okay, I need to go to law school, wow.
Speaker 3:So I tell younger professionals or even students. Pay attention when you feel like someone else's problem became your problem, because God may be talking to you at that moment. God might have shared a piece of his heart with you. So pay attention and think about that. And if you haven't had that kind of experience and you're not a teacher, you're not a teacher, you're not a teacher, you're not a teacher. So I think that's a good thing. And if you haven't had that kind of experience, then look out for it, because there will come a time where God will share that piece of heart with you and perhaps then, maybe, you're calling you know it's funny because I was talking to a friend recently and I said you know, more and more I hear people saying I want to be a billionaire.
Speaker 2:And I was like I never heard that before and I was like what? Also, what an absurd dream. Like you know what, if that's really what you want, great, you know, and really no judgment on that. I think my curiosity comes from like, where, where does that come from? And her answer as we're kind of like trying to unpack that, she said well, because you know people who are wealthy or billionaires, they always look like they're winning. You know, they have a lot of money, they have all the luxuries, they have the beautiful wife or beautiful husband and they're just winning. And I was like, oh, that's interesting, like, and I didn't really think about it that way Like you know, being in New York going to Columbia, you know, which is extremely prestigious school, like I guess it's, like it just it's, it's, there's just so many influences.
Speaker 2:I'm going to tell you otherwise. Then you're like, no, I need to go to this like third world country where you know these children are being, you know, abused and, just you know, terrible things are happening. Was there never a temptation or I don't know, an inkling of desire to want those things for yourself, or I don't know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, no, that's a very valid question and I think, do you know? Enneagram by any chance.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So I'm? I'm an Enneagram eight, I'm a social eight. So you know, if you understand Enneagram and especially how social eight operates with a subtype of social, I think you will understand why I really didn't have any of that, because Enneagram eights are interesting. I think we are the type that is most misunderstood because, because we just have this kind of like.
Speaker 3:you know what others will call confidence, right, and what we call we'll call like the kind of self-esteem or self-satisfaction that kind of makes us, yeah, be, be like be more comfortable in our own skin.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Sometimes it's like misunderstood for aggression, but it really is just a clarity of self and vision, really yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I think I had that and I think also, yeah, also how I was brought up really really just encouraged me to be that, you know, and I was always a leader in school and I had all those kind of opportunities given to me to to really help others, to lead others and things like that. So, and I don't think there was a one, you know, and I think that's all very valid struggle, though you know, you really have to kind of find yourself, because you know, like, you know for your, for your friend, like she wants, she wants to look, she wants to win or she wants all of those kind of things. But I wonder if, if she really, if what she ultimately wants, is that is winning what she really wants, or is it the kind of satisfaction or is it the kind of joy or sense of, you know, being acknowledged and loved? I mean, all of those things you know are kind of all complicated right. It's not just like one thing that she wants, but everything that comes with that.
Speaker 2:Right, right, you know, for for a while now there's been so much money and studies towards longevity and you know, you know, extending your lifespan and I mean it's becoming more popular and you know so much more in the zeitgeist now. But it's interesting because, like these extremely super wealthy people have, you know, you know I'm sure they're living an amazing, have amazing things in their life and you know they're just, they're gung-ho about, you know, preserving their life and like just elongating it, which again, is a reflection of perhaps, maybe their beliefs too. But, man, if I could live every day with that enthusiasm would be, would be amazing. Because the thing that keeps me up at night and my biggest fear, I guess, is is this idea of an, of infinity and eternity. Because, you know, in a lot of ways I can make sense of eternity ahead of us and even that thought alone is terrifying, like never ending. Never ending, just like never ends, you know.
Speaker 2:And then, but then there's also the, the infinity before us and it is, you know, it, it's so. It makes me feel so fragile and so small and in ways that's scary and ways that's like humbling and amazing, it also just kind of like, just like it really does cut through the noise, because you're just like I'm just this little blip in this crazy expanse of space. But that feeling of smallness is is absolutely terrifying, because I had no control of, you know, being here, being alive, having this consciousness, and then, like I don't know, it's, it's like deeply terrifying to me. I, you know, I have so many panic attacks because of that, that thought, and I've had that for like over over you know, decades now of of that thought, and even when I was a Christian it was really still very I don't know. I just couldn't have that certainty of.
Speaker 2:I don't know, maybe that's just me, I'm just like such a, you know, not to say that you're not a skeptical mind or you're, you know, naive in any way, but it just makes me like I'm just so skeptical that like I just couldn't fully commit or submit to this knowing, you know, and maybe that's my own experience or reflection of my experience, I guess. But anyways, yeah, it's that's, yeah, it's, it's very terrifying. Oh no, thank you for sharing.
Speaker 3:I I can, I can empathize with that too, because you know that that kind of thought comes to me time to time too, you know, for sure, you know, even in the midst of, because the kind of doubt, right, that like where are we going, where is this world going and does God really exist? Right, and but of course you know, I, I have experienced God in a way that brings me back to of course he does right and of course he cares, you know, of course he loves, but I think back to your kind of, your fear of, of, of infinity, right, that's eternal life, and while there is also, you know, we go both ways, right, like people want to live long life, but then we are also scared of this eternity at the same time. And what I, what I and I think love, even human love, but love in a way that is, um, like not pure but close to pure form. I think the kind of love that we find really beautiful, like deep down in our hearts, that we can all see and agree that is beautiful, is those sacrificial love, love that is sacrificial in a way that it's very self-giving, and I have experienced those love in my life too. But just talking about, for example, like the love that we have, I have with my husband Marlowe, just if I can imagine living a life irrespective of what's happening in the world, but just looking at us and our love for each other, the kind of day-to-day living that is just full of joy and it's just so much fun, it's so much from being in love and while in a way, the kind of the brokenness and the dissatisfaction that we experienced from the world can kind of want us to limit what's happening, limit what we experienced as brokenness, when I look at just Marlowe and my husband Marlowe, I will love for him to exist forever with me, because being with him is just.
Speaker 3:I just cannot imagine not having him or him not having me. So I think that's how God sees it right, because he not only am I in love with God, but he's in love with us and the only reason why he created the world is because he loves and because he is loved. And I think that's why I can only understand God through the lens of love, idea of love, because other than that everything that I believe actually kind of falls apart. It does not make sense. But when I truly believe that God created the world and us out of love into love, and he redeems this world because of his love and he himself is love. Then I can understand why he wants he designed this to be an eternity.
Speaker 2:Right, I guess to take that in another direction, and I am sorry, I didn't mean to make you into an apologist for this whole conversation. No, no. But for someone who works with human trafficking and these stories of places where children are being harmed and not just children, I know you work with women and adults as well but yeah, where you're really seeing really just like devastating things, like how do you make sense of that with? I guess this is like the quintessential question how does a loving God allow terrible things to happen?
Speaker 3:I don't even know. And then the short answer will be ask God Because I have no idea, right, Because all these hundreds of thousands of years, and we have tried to ask that question like why suffering?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I don't think I mean we all admit that we cannot answer, that, we can never comprehend that, but it doesn't mean that we stop asking impossible questions. So we do need to ask those questions. And but when I see the darkness and brokenness that our children experience in the midst of this type of violence called trafficking and intergenerational exploitation that is imposed upon these children, it's devastating, it's heartbreaking.
Speaker 2:And it's, I think, with the way you put it was for so anyone who might not know exactly what human trafficking is, but it's, I think in one of your articles you said it's rape for profit is what it is, so is it specifically only targeted towards women human trafficking Because of that fact.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so human trafficking at large we can. There's a labor trafficking, and, and there is a trafficking into the brothels and, and it also includes human trafficking, also includes child marriage and sex trafficking, as well as a trafficking into a forced labor. All of those are called human trafficking and you know it's by force and it's exploitative and it's it leads to physical, psychological and emotional suffering of human, and human trafficking really takes away the whole being, whole person, and a lot of times what happens is that once you are trafficked, this, this exploitation continues through to the next generation who are born into this type of situation. So so, yes, it is rape for profit, but that is for specifically human trafficking that is done to women and children and also men actually into into sexual exploitation and so and but a lot of times, of course, you know, when a forced labor happens, there is also the aspect of a lot of sexual exploitation that come with that kind of situation as well. So it's, it's absolutely inhumane and it's absolutely a crime anywhere you go. A lot of times sex trafficking is done to young children and and because of that, their child is completely robbed and they grow up not only abused but also absolutely uneducated. Therefore this kind of exploitation continues to the next generation of children who are born into that situation, from the victims.
Speaker 3:So you know, I.
Speaker 3:So when I see that, I mean it's so much of darkness that it is motivated by just the worst of the humanity and it's really a, in a way, transaction.
Speaker 3:You know, people are trafficked essentially because traffickers want to make money out of people, out of abusing people, and so it's a type of crime that that is motivated by greed and concern and without any concern for another human being. So, but when I look at that and I, you know, I see before God and then, and then I, I cry and I just just to lay that, lay this situation before him and just ask him to come and enter into it. And you know, although I can never fully understand the cause of the suffering, why this kind of things happen, one thing that I do know for certain is that God has invited all of us into this kind of situation to be a solution, to be the repairer and restorer. So I think, yes, we need to continue to ask those impossible questions, but at the same time, it should also motivate us to be with the people who are broken, to show up in a place of darkness Sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do feel, like, you know, to that point sometimes I feel like I'm always often asking myself what is the meaning of life. And, you know, to one of those impossible questions where I feel like it's kind of a point, it's not, it's not it's a pointless question, but it's like to your point, it's a question that should that will drive you to look for the answer. But I think for me there's some level of realization that I don't know if I will ever have the answer to that. So it's not really the best question to ask, but it's a purposeful question, you know. So I kind of like understand that of like, why is there suffering in the world? Now, you know, we may not fully know the answer to that question and maybe in some ways it isn't the right question, but it's a purposeful question that will lead to other things of discovery towards that question, I guess.
Speaker 2:But you know, I think, really one of the one of the things that you know, when I first met you, you know you were just so warm and welcoming and vibrant and you know there's just so many things about you as a person that really captivated me. But you know, I think what really caught my attention was your. Your vision for the work you do, which is that obviously, as a lawyer, there's justice is a huge part of your work, and even the work you do with these children and these women in in these places. It's to have to get justice for these people, like their laws in place. Let us execute and ensure that this law is being upheld and these people are being protected. But I've never heard someone explain justice as beauty, and so I was wondering if we could maybe dive a little bit more into how does beauty enter the conversation of justice?
Speaker 3:Oh, that's a great question and I'll try to be concise, as concise as possible. I think we have to start with our assumption. What is your assumption about justice? What is? How do you understand justice? You know what is your definition of it, because a lot of times you enter into conversation and you may have a two very intelligent, good-hearted with character people come together and they seem to be talking over each other, like they don't really come to understanding because they come from different assumptions. Right, so you may be talking about justice and beauty, but there may not be the same justice and beauty that I'm talking about, and I think that's where we should start. Right, what are the assumptions?
Speaker 3:So you know when justice is such a loaded term? Right, because justice seen or pursued in America may look very different from another country. So what is the justice that we can all kind of resonate with? So for me, I had to really look into, like, the meaning behind justice and when we talk about justice, and because, of course, my faith is the kind of the framework through which I operate my life, in a way, I look at the Bible and I kind of found God referring himself as God of justice and righteousness multiple, multiple times throughout the Bible and, interestingly enough, god talks about justice. Well, the Bible talks about justice along with righteousness most of the time. And so I get curious, because what does righteousness really mean? Because it sounds like it's about piety, right, like being right and upright and moral. I mean that's the kind of idea that we have when we look at this English word righteousness, so the kind of the root word for justice and righteousness. When we say in the Bible and we see kind of justice and righteousness kind of play out throughout the Bible and that those two words are Mishpa and Serecha, and Mishpa means restorative justice, where something was done, like something wrong was done to somebody, then the victim is being restored and the wrongdoer is restrained. That's the idea of restorative justice. So it sounds much more like maybe like criminal law that we have or maybe like civil litigation that we have, or there's a money, damage is sought and so forth. But it's actually not that simple.
Speaker 3:When we talk about victims being restored and the wrongdoer being restrained, the Bible word Mishpa is not limited to just an individual case. So when we think about justice we think about just individual cases. Right, this person was wrong and we need to make this person whole, but in order for us to make sure that this kind of this victim is restored and the wrongdoer is restrained and also that does not happen again to another person or in the same person. We are talking about not only individual case but whole, systematic social rehabilitation. That has to happen when a people who are in the minority or people who are in the oppressed group right, they get to be uplifted in the society where they don't experience this kind of wrongdoing again. So when we look at Mishpa the word for justice we're talking about the entire society looking after each other, looking at the people who are oppressed and really lifting them all up so that they are empowered. And we create a system where the people who are doing the wrong can be in a place of not only restraining but in a place of repentance and be restored, so that it's not just locking them up in the prison so that they can come out and do the same. It's about restoring them as well, so that the entire society is a place of what we can call just. So it's a much larger idea. In order for us to achieve that, there has to be not only law enforcement, lawyers, lawmakers but we need to have social workers, psychologists, educators, people who are lobbying, people who are doing non-profit work, who are doing prison work and education. All of us have to come together seeking justice together.
Speaker 3:Now the word righteousness, which is setaka. This actually is not about piety at all. Setaka means a state of harmony, when all relationships are flourishing. I can imagine all these relationships are in a flourishing state and harmonious state, and we're not talking about lack of conflict, we're talking about kind of peace that motivates all these flourishing to happen. So it's kind of the idea of estuary, which is my office, where all these different relationships coexist and then they have this beautiful competition, healthy coexistence that leads to abundance and flourishing and generativity. That is the word setaka. And justice and righteousness, mishpa and setaka. They must be coupled together Because if you can imagine a society where the oppressed are lifted up right and then the wrong doors have an opportunity to be restored as well, that society you can imagine will have setaka. It will have that kind of flourishing relationships.
Speaker 3:So now going back to law, even for that conversation we have to think about assumptions. What is law? Law is not just rules, set of rules or regulations or restrictions. Law is actually all about relationship. So think about any type of law that you know employment law it's about relationship between employer and employee. Family law, criminal law, government and citizen, environmental law, marine time law, metronomia law, business law All these laws are about relationship and the laws exist to help these relationships to be in a harmonious state. Right, and, of course, sometimes you put it in a way don't do this or you can only do this, and all these things are not. It's in place not to limit you but to teach you that these are the kind of things that you have to be thinking about in order for you to have a flourishing relationship under this boundary.
Speaker 3:Therefore, even very fundamental human rights right and civil law, where you know do not steal from your neighbor, that law is there. And, of course, you know when the lawmakers are making this. You know, were they really thinking about this? Maybe, maybe not, but then law is there because, ultimately, not stealing from your neighbor is a loving thing to do that leads to good relationship with your neighbor, right? So of course you know we don't put morality or generosity into the law. You know government doesn't force you to give to a nonprofit. You know 20% of. However, we do put it into something like tax law where we give you benefit, right, we give you tax deduction if you give it to a nonprofit. That motivates this kind of generosity so that we can have harmonious and flourishing relationship. So practicing law is really about teaching and guiding, helping our clients to have loving relationships so that they know how to love their neighbor.
Speaker 3:Therefore, when we do that this, justice and righteousness can happen. And now, in a places like our children, who are being abused, injustice is happening there. Our job is to come in and use all of the skills that we have, the gifts that we have, the resources that we have to bring about that justice and righteousness, to make sure that our children are protected and lifted up and the wrongdoers are restrained and they have an opportunity to learn what to do about it and how to not do it in the future and do something else that's illegal, and create this community where our children can flourish and not be looked down upon because of what was done to them All of these things. When that happens, we will say justice and righteousness is done. Now imagine that community. This community was once broken. Our children's lives were completely broken because of the abuse and exploitation, even the wrongdoers, their lives were broken. I mean, it's a terrible life to be a criminal.
Speaker 3:Now, when we come in to see justice with mercy, to bring about restoration of these relationships, these broken lives, we can never turn back the time and go back to a time where injustice did not happen, the abuse did not happen. We can only go forward by restoring the lives of these children, relationship within this community, by mending these relationships. But when we do that we have to be very creative. We cannot be saying I'm going to just protect you so that nobody can exploit you again Because that wound is still there. That wound has to be mended in a way that leads to a new opportunity of growth and flourishing. And how can that happen? Only when we pour extravagant love into those broken fissures we can see a new opportunity of these children having this life of flourishing.
Speaker 3:Because if you can imagine an abused victim, just the abuse victim, just going through counseling, it's not going to be in a place of restoration Because her life is ruined just because she was able to say, ok, I am ready for the next season. We have to come alongside so that this person can have the opportunity for example, our children because of the abuse, because of intergenerational exploitation. They were never educated. They are illiterate. Just because they are out of the brothel doesn't mean that their life can flourish. They have to be educated, they need to be empowered. All of those things have to come along and, of course, they cannot be done by a lawyer. Those things need to be done with social workers, educators, community leaders. The bomb needs to be educated to be a mother, because she was never educated, because of the trauma that she had to experience. So all of those things have to happen.
Speaker 3:Then we can see, restore. It's true restoration. And when that true restoration happens, we will call that justice. But that state is going to look so much more beautiful and so much more valuable than the life that they had before. And it's the idea of Kinsuki when we are mending broken pieces, we can never mend it. For example, we have a broken cuff. We can never just super glue it and then pretend that the crack never happened. Because you see the crack, and in order for us to make this a true restoration, we're going to pour into this fissure gold, precious metal, making this cup a lot more valuable than the original cup. And that's the state of flourishing. That's the state of Mishpa and Seraka, and when that happens, we will experience beauty. That is my idea of the mystery of beauty, although it was once broken because of the extravagant love that was poured into, and to me, that is the act of justice.
Speaker 3:Justice is not just about putting the criminal behind the bar. That is just the beginning of the work of justice. There was one time that we rescued this young girl from sex trafficking and we asked her this question now that you're free, what do you want? And, of course, this kind of question is an impossible question for most of our survivors, because they never was asked about their desire. Is it even okay for me to have my own desire? But this girl, by God's grace, had an answer for us and I think it's really a message that was given to us. We asked her now that you're free, what do you want? And she said I want to be beautiful again. And that is the work of justice, and we can pour ourselves into this work of justice so that the people who have experienced this injustice can see themselves beautiful again, more beautiful, more valuable, so their life and their dignity is restored to a place where they can see themselves as valuable. That is the work of justice.
Speaker 3:The work of justice is not done until there is a beauty restored. So that's why the conversation about justice without beauty is incomplete. And also the flip side of it is that when there's no justice, there's really no beauty. When there's injustice happening, when the Mishpa and Zedaka is not in existence, when the relationships were supposed to be flourishing in a Mishpa state and the Zedaka state is broken, that is not beauty. So I think that's why when the Bible says, seek justice, love mercy and walk humbly with God and this is the kind of model for all Christian justice seekers out there but it makes so much sense that God will put seeking justice, loving mercy and walking humbly with God in one kind of command, because you cannot seek justice without mercy, because the end goal of justice is not punishment, it's restoration of beauty.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which is which is really how I think people love Batman. This is a weird tangent, but I think people love Batman. It's to some degree because he's the vigilante that gets to get justice and it's just locking up the bad guys and like that's it. You know, but I'm not, I don't really know the full Batman story. So for any of those comic book lovers out there, but to your point, there's, there's that is only part of the picture where it's like we don't see, like the bad guy is not just a bad guy and like that's just his role. It's also kind of expanding our minds that this too is a person you know, and you know this criminal or a person who enacted justice was probably most likely abused and violated as a child as well, which is just this perpetuating circle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's powerful. I mean, you know, for the work that you do and you know it is heavy stuff and you know especially, I think, for someone like me and probably a lot of people who are listening, where you know most of our you know, we don't see this kind of stuff most day to day. Do you ever get tired or deflated or I don't know? I just you just seem like the energizer, but buddy, just like ready to go always and I don't know so much energy to give. I mean, yeah, do you ever? Do you ever get tired? Of course.
Speaker 2:Melissa I mean those moments where you might feel a little bit like I mean, because you know this is a problem that will be solved, that will never. I mean it's just it's going to be beyond your lifetime, right. I mean just see, like really break down these systems and it's just, it's such a massive problem to take on, like I don't know what keeps you going, what keeps you not give up, because it's so easy to give up, you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, that's a great question. So when I set out to do this work of really seeking justice and it's been over 20 years now and it's been just a wild ride and just incredible journey I said to to God and to myself as an advocate, as a lawyer, if I can protect one child, restore one child, seek justice for one child in my life, my entire life will be worth it. My all, my education, all my efforts, all the time that that I had to put into train myself to do this work, will be worth it. And now we have protected and it's been we always. You know we are helping hundreds of children being restored. So I think just knowing that and how much, how much of my desire to just give myself to one child, have just been generative and and God really, you know, gave so much fruit out of that kind of commitment. I just have to be reminded of that and I think that's and, of course, I have people around me who will remind me of that. And and also, you know I go back to India every year. I go back to see my clients and my field team every year and just being with them reminds me of just incredible joy that is within this work, as much as it's really hard work, and you know, when I, when I introduce this work of justice, I make sure our listeners understand that this is a hard work and this is a long journey, but it is so worth it and it is so rewarding that I have no hesitation inviting any of you to be a part of it, because it's a really an honor to be part of this.
Speaker 3:And I think, going back to the, you know me not having that kind of ultimate sovereignty over the problems, right? So you know God is sovereign over all and I get to play a part. Therefore, yes, you know things are frustrating sometimes, because you know it's not we can solve this problem as quickly as we want, we can really find these kind of help as much as we want, but even in the midst of all of that, there is this confidence that God, the creator of this universe, who sovereign over each of these lives, care for them so much more than we can ever imagine. Therefore, I can trust in that love and I can do my part, knowing that the, the outcome, is in God's hand, and I can give that to him and and go to sleep actually, because otherwise I won't be able to go to sleep, knowing that you know, some of our children still live in a brothel. But I can pray that you know, god, you will protect them tonight, do you have time for your own healing and restoration?
Speaker 2:Like you know, as individuals we all carry our own trauma and histories. Like you know, with the work that you do, that's so much focus on other people and it's also just very time consuming. Like you said, it's really hard work. Like do you have time and space, like I guess over your lifetime now, of healing and addressing your own trauma?
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, that's a great question and I make sure I have that, because I cannot be effective If I cannot, you know, deal with my own struggles.
Speaker 3:So yeah, I mean, over the years I mean I had a season where I had to intensely give myself to a time of healing and restoration, but from my own, you know personal struggles and but also I mean there was like there was a seasons for that.
Speaker 3:But I also put it into my kind of daily practice of daily reflection and if there's anything that kind of bothers me, that is in me, that is uncomfortable, and or I kind of watch myself reacting to certain things, right, and somebody says something and I react in a way that because a lot of times it doesn't matter what was said to me, it's the reaction that I have that tells me that there was some trigger or some that need to be dealt with. Then then I stop and then I reflect on that and then I schedule in a time for counseling, time for spiritual direction, and I usually am very fortunate to have again my immediate family that can provide the kind of spiritual direction and counseling on a very regular basis. But of course, in addition to that, you know, I make sure that I find myself in a time of reflection and counseling as well.
Speaker 2:Does your life ever feel just jarring at times?
Speaker 2:Because I just remember, you know, one of my first trips to I did missions work in Nicaragua, maybe like maybe 15 years ago it was, and I remember so vividly that feeling of being there because, you know, growing up in America, growing up in New York City, in just like the most cosmopolitan city in the world, it was just this weird feeling of like it's not to say like there's more evil in one place or the other, but when you can like there's a different type of, I think, struggle we have in the States and in some ways it's more it's like veiled because things look good, you know, physically, but there's obviously a lot of brokenness inside.
Speaker 2:And then you go to a place like Nicaragua and it's like it's very physically you can see the physical brokenness of things and I don't know just like. There's just like a weird, like dissonance inside, because you're, just like I live in a place where we have like we have order, we have water, we have homes, we have food and there aren't kids begging for food on the streets like there are in these places, and not to make Nicaragua small by any means, but I mean you know you're also married to a world renowned artist. You know, and like the exposure to, you know, the world of art and living in New York City and then you know, also being in part of these places that are so decimated, like is there? Just like your insides are just like what's going on and I don't know like what happens on the inside, like what's your experience of the world, having had so many experiences, I guess like such a spectrum of experiences.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I remember first time going to India and really feeling like, can I really love this country? Because I just know too much of the darkness that happens here. And it was a real struggle, because if I cannot love this country, I cannot serve this country. I am called to bring justice in a way that brings flourishing and healing and restoration. And how can I do that in a place that I cannot love? That I just have much more of a judgmental attitude towards, you know, and that's not something that I can help like, I cannot force myself to do that. So I had a you know. So going there, I really asked God, god help me, help me with this. I don't know. I don't know if what I'm supposed to be feeling and doing and although you know I've been doing this you know human rights work for a while by the time that I went to India for the very first time and what I experienced there is, of course, the kind of darkness that I haven't seen in any other places, although I know of it right, but I saw it with my bare eyes and I sensed it in a way that was so close to my heart and it was difficult to bear. But then at the same time, I met in that country just incredibly beautiful people. They are essentially like like sacred agents, you know, doing the kind of secret mission of love in a way that is like so humble, so honoring, so self-giving that I was awed by them and so by the time that I was leaving that country I basically left half of my heart there. I just fell in love with that country because of like, my heart was broken because of people and my heart was also moved because of people and I couldn't wait to go back to that country and of course I think it's there is a benefit of us going into a very different world because we have, we can see, you know, what's bright and what's dark much more clearly, because we are not, we don't understand it really and we're not in it. So there is that sense of like, yes, we can tell you what's really going on because we are more of an outsider looking in. But at the same time, I think you know when.
Speaker 3:So when I came back, I shared that experience with a friend of mine and you know the kind of experience that I had meeting this six-month-old child in a brothel and holding the child and not being able to take the child and run right and then having to leave the child behind, knowing the destiny of this child unless there is an intervention.
Speaker 3:So, and then when I, you know, when I shared that with my friend, also New Yorker, he asked me this very poignant question Imagine what do you think that others like you know our friends in India, perhaps, when they come to America and see us for the first time, what do you think that they will recognize as brokenness? Because we can see, we feel like we can see so clearly the brokenness, right, and, and I said you know what, that's a really good question, and I think they'll be able to recognize right away the brokenness of one, I think, wastefulness, the kind of consumerism that leads to wastefulness in this country then I think they will be so shocked by it, you know. And so, yes, it's, I think drawing indeed, but I think that gives us the kind of and I'm hoping that that kind of drawing experience can lead us into asking those questions again, right, and, and looking for the kind of light that can come through the fissures of brokenness, leading to the kind of kinsuki beauty.
Speaker 2:That was really good, great answer. I'm just amazed by that answer right now. Well, we are definitely over time. I am so sorry, but let's just wrap things up. So the last two questions I'm going to ask you is what do you do for fun or for play?
Speaker 3:So many things I make sure. I make sure I play and have fun all the time and, of course, work is really fun for me as much as you know, it's hard, hard work. But besides work, I do a lot of silly things throughout the day. So I make up songs all the time. So I, yes, I sing a lot of opera that I, just, you know, make up.
Speaker 2:Oh, do you care to show us a little? Give us a taste.
Speaker 3:If you ever visit me at home, I will, you will hear it very naturally. So please come yeah so I'm singing all day long and. I kind of it's very contagious.
Speaker 3:So now Mark sings all the time too, and it's like you know, yeah, like it's like, it's like it's a made up song, so it doesn't really exist and we can't even recall it because, you know, once it's tuned it's in the moment. So, yeah, we live in the moment a lot and we dance around dinner table. It's another fun thing that we do and I didn't realize, I didn't know this, but I heard that dancing actually relieves stress a lot. So it makes sense that we do that after dinner at the end of the day. And and you know, outside of those silly daily routine that we do, you know we travel a lot, so, and of course all of our travels are work, but we make sure that we put it into our work, you know, just something fun and beautiful in the midst of it.
Speaker 3:So, whether it's like, you know, stopping by a museum on the way, as much as possible, yeah, and I think what else do we do for fun? Oh, you know we we have a beautiful garden and that we need to tend. So that's one thing that we do. I do very little, you know Makoto's most of the gardening, but that's another fun thing. And then we do also bird watching. Yeah, so I never knew so many birds names before I married Mako, but bird species in New Jersey.
Speaker 2:Surprisingly, I was looking at the window one day I was like, oh, that's a blue jay over there. It's just amazing yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so a lot of bird watching, which is just really fun, and because we, our property invites quite a few animals around, yeah, so yeah, those things are just just beautiful things that, yeah, can keep us occupied.
Speaker 2:Nice, Okay. Last question is what would you tell your younger self?
Speaker 3:You know, I that's a really good question and fun question, and I think, more than saying anything, I think I'll just give her a big hug. And I think you know, because I you know we get to learn about ourselves as we grow older and mature and I, I'm a type of person that needs more of an affirmation than than, in a way, wisdom, more like so when when you encourage me, like I can do so much more. So I think I'll just just tell her that, that you know I'm proud of you, although you haven't really accomplished anything. You know I'm proud of you and I'll just give her a big hug.
Speaker 2:I love that. We'll end it right there. Thank you for listening. Remember there is no one way, so go and make your way.
Speaker 1:Join us next week as we keep making way Did I say way too much, oh, bye.